Formless Wing Chun

[r4cy]

I just want to ask the opinion of everybody about learning Wing Chun without the forms. Even though I know the forms help the student to have an orientation on where he is... I believe that at some point the concepts of wing chun could be taught without necessarily learning the forms and still be proficient in the system. Any opinions?

[UKBBC]

Some people are naturally talented and can be proficient with just the SLT, they may not need to learn all the forms. Different horses for different courses, depends on the student's focus, if they want to really explore wing chun or if they want self defence. But I would say SLT is essential.

Generally speaking, it's probably like driving a car using just your feet - it can be done but doesn't mean it's a good idea (but that's only my opinion)

[r4cy]

well,, what I meant is that a person could learn the tecniques from siu lim tao ( pak sao, tan sao, boang sao etc etc) without necessarily learning siu lim tao... they could learn how to walk,shift and enter.. etc etc without necessarily learning chum kiu and so on. I think it's possible. Not that people are going to like removing the traditional forms.... but it's possible no?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey r4cy,
It would definitely be possible. Take boxing for example, they break down the punches, footwork, and other movements into drills and then they use it (put it together) in sparring.

You could do the same with wing chun.

J

[r4cy]

If a teacher decided to do so... you think they would be taken seriously in the wing chun community?

[Jeff Bussey]

I personally wouldn't care and don't care about any community. Saying that, you probably won't be accepted. The main thing is if the people you train can be functional.
You don't 'need' any of the forms to be practical with your wing chun.
The problem that some people will have, is that certain people want to learn the system the way it was taught years ago. They want the stories, the myths and the traditions. They have every right to want that, they just have to find a school that will provide it.

So you're definitely going to be stepping on peoples toes by doing that, the question is, does it matter?

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

Imo, it can be done - but using the forms judiciously would be even better than no forms at all. There's much to be learned from the forms. But there's no need to spend more than 10-15 minutes per class doing forms (once the forms have been memorized).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Victor and Jeff have gong sau'd the correct.

[LoneTiger108]

...I believe that at some point the concepts of wing chun could be taught without necessarily learning the forms and still be proficient in the system. Any opinions?

IMHO this is happening already, and has been since Leung Jan. Some mainland variations utilize a point system, from 12 to 22 to 40. Basically, as far as I'm aware, each point can be utilized and trained to be effective in san sau applications. All without a form in sight!

I'm not saying that they never practice the forms, but by the time they do they will already have a good foundation knowledge and the learning of the forms must be easier IMO.

Personally, IME, I've taught a small group of guys without 'all' forms, but have used forms to highlight certain principles during their time training. They benefitted greatly from NOT being exposed to the forms so early on (at least not the whole form anyway). What we need to remember is that this was the way many Wing Chun practitioners taught as the forms were more of a secret back then than they are now.

I know there are other contributors who can give you more information on systems such as 'Pien San' and 'Gulao (Kulo) Wing Chun, so I'll leave it there for now. Hope I've helped!

ps. On our site you can view what a curriculum can look like without the form as it is only 1 area of our training. Ultimately though, I believe without SLT at least there is no Wing Chun, but I am a wee bit biased.

[UKBBC]

well,, what I meant is that a person could learn the tecniques from siu lim tao ( pak sao, tan sao, boang sao etc etc) without necessarily learning siu lim tao... they could learn how to walk,shift and enter.. etc etc without necessarily learning chum kiu and so on. I think it's possible. Not that people are going to like removing the traditional forms.... but it's possible no?

Like some types of JKD? I've met one or 2 JKD practitioners with no SLT, but they can pull out some of the structures. However, I personally found the forms necessary to develop precise structure, esp with regard to elbow position. Outside of a form (sparring and freeflow), your structure may not necessarily be perfect, but if you train a good form, I think you are more likely to pull out good useful structure under pressure (whether or not that structure is appropriate for that application is another kettle of fish).

But yeah, I agree with the others, if you are going to pick and choose techniques, you probably shouldn't be calling it wing chun.

[KPM]

You might want to check out the thread "Functionalizing Wing Chun" that has now dropped back to page 2. It addresses some of the thing you bring up. Here is one of the things I said on that thread:

Here's a thought that I had.....develop a "san sik" system of "separate points" as in Ku Lo Wing Chun. Break out of the traditional forms those movements that are key to the WCK body structure as well as those movements proven to be functional in a realistic sparring situation. Develop them as short "san sik"sequences that are practiced solo, with a partner in a two-man "set" format, applied on the dummy, and in sparring. This would be similar to a boxer that works specific combos solo, against the focus mitts, on the heavy bag, and in sparring. This "san sik system" could be either a supplement to "traditional" WCK, or its own independant version of WCK. It would allow one to focus on and develop those WCK movements that are the most functional and useful. But now the question becomes....which parts of the forms would you break out as a san sik? What movements of your own would you put into a san sik? Here's an example:

Bong-Lop Da...solo...two-man version = classic Lop Da drill...practiced on the dummy...worked into sparring against a resisting opponent.

[Hendrik]

No form, one will lost the specific Power Generation training which is designed for the style.

Application without the specific power generation training is cutting down the effectiveness or paralized the style.

one cannot act as female character behave and practicing male's action.

One cannot punch as one just punch.. That is the part of the art which is fading in general....


But we think everything is the same. Nope, IMHO, in my understanding it cant be... WCK which punch like boxing is no longer WCK.


peace

[Vajramusti]

No form, one will lost the specific Power Generation training which is designed for the style.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree. But knowing the sequence is not knowing the form.
And- there will be other opinions.

joy chaudhuri

[dfl]

I just want to ask the opinion of everybody about learning Wing Chun without the forms. Even though I know the forms help the student to have an orientation on where he is... I believe that at some point the concepts of wing chun could be taught without necessarily learning the forms and still be proficient in the system. Any opinions?

Can one do physics without mathematics? While some physicists like Feynman and Hawking have been successful in explaining the concepts of physics to the layman with minimal use of mathematics, even they cannot make any solid prediction (which is, after all, what science is all about) without the use of mathematics.
Oops! Wrong forum. Never mind.

[r4cy]

That's just such a lame argument