The end of tradition?

[sanjuro_ronin]

ah but there are no trained kung fu fighters, lol what is a kung fu fighter?

very good question, we all know what a MT fighter is, a Judoka, a boxer, etc, what is a kung fu fighter?

[zhangxihuan]

eh.. nowadays everyone is lazy.. race aside..

there are lot of Chinese kids ( i know them personally) who dont care about anything.. kung fu, scholastics, what have you.They are just becoming more and more americanized (in a bad way). their chinese sucks, they live with their "significant others" rather than preserving their family name or honor.. its just becoming more common as people get out of their enclaves.....

but as for MA...

well doesn't matter where you go.. traditional martials have gone down the tube- and moreso in certain cities than others (such as LA vs New York) LA is in the trash heap except for like 2 schools- that one run by Shaolin monks up in Rosemead, and Shaolin lomita.. Forget the rest.. I visited them and well- they suck..

even a lot of wushu schools get kids who don't want to practice. (acutally modern wushu training -if done properly is brutal, and no one wants to do it) wushu schools dont have much attendance either. (for comparison)..


I think the critics of traditional martial arts are correct though in some respects- like when are you ever really going to use it?
Someone could just come up and tase the crap out of you.. or shoot you (like in East LA or Compton) and when are you really going to whip out a shuang dao and kick someone's ass???

its like Indiana Jones where the guy gets the sword out and Indy just shoots him..


however its also a culture thing as well (as you pointed out).. people are simply in a fast food world. wushu/kung fu/ what have you takes a long time to get good at, and you have to be going to a good school..

I think a lot of teachers also damage the art as well. They have big heads, crazed and frenzied about how cool it is that they hurt someone once, talk like gurus, divert their mythical powers to sentient beings, act macho, and some go as far as disrespecting students....

how then can the art survive?

Although i think several grandmasters are no better. They leave their systems to stupid westerners who have no moral code or honor, as IF it will survive some whack job's inheritance. Then no one wants to learn, or go.

There is also the problem of teachers who are in it for the money. The multiple belts, tests that you have to repeat a million times, teachers that instill fear in students over messing up (met several of those). Even some schools where the rivalry is so over the top they beat people up (attended one of those).

Or the "wait 20 years and I'll show you what this move is for" - my favorite line. "we don't teach that until you are a 3rd degree black belt." If I asked you should show me as a paying customer who has questions.


The more weirdos who teach the less likely it is the art itself will survive (as a whole). And the more people who are born who just get what they want immediately the more likely all Chinese martial arts will go by the wayside (wushu/traditional what have you)...

[bawang]

i agree 100% zhangxihuan you said evrything i was thinking.

[golden arhat]

I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese.....

yeah i totally agree


think about it


what is exotic and exciting for your average western napoleon dynamite type

to a chinese kid would simply be something they have had within there culture for ages
its something theyre grandparents may have done


u never see westerners showing the same passion they show for kung fu
for western fencing on such a huge scale do you

[golden arhat]

i'll take clf over judo anywday...clf has weapon sets, judo has joint locks...clf fighter vs judo fighter= clf guy just cut off judo mans hand before he grabs it

what is a kung fu fighter?

yeah but it doesnt look like most of the weapon sets teach you much anyway

so a judo guy would probably be just as proficient with a blade or spear as you

[hskwarrior]

Actually, My Students Have Gotten The Chance To Use Their Gung Fu More Than Once Since They've Been With Me. I Mean All My Students.

I Can't Stand It When People Say You Can Get Shot, Tazed, Stoned, Or What Ever........

He Can Have A Gun, So Can I. He Can Have A Tazer So Can I. Etc. Etc.

The Reality Of It Is, If You Don't Know How To Effectively Use Your Gung Fu In An All Out Battle, Then What Are You Learning?

Sport Fighting Is Good. But Not All Of Us Are Athletes. But Some Of Us Could Be Great Street Fighters.

Now, If You Don't Think A Good Street Fighter Would Kick Your Arse Even If Your Are A Black Belt, Then You Need To Give Your Black Belt Back. I Say This Will All Confidence.........i've Seen It........

But If You Got A Good Street Fighter Who Knows How To Fight With His Gung Fu, I Think You Have A Better Street Fighter.

For As I've Said, Not All Of Us Are Athletes, Or Want To Fight For Sport. I've Known Third Degree Black Belts Who've Taken One Class At My School And Realized They Don't Know How To Use It On The Streets.
Waste Of Time In My Opinion.

I Do Think There Should Be A Balance Of Martial Art, And Martial Reality.

[hskwarrior]

Goldan Arhat.......

With An Open Mind, You'd See That Within A Weapon Form, Is A Hidden Hand Form. A Hand Form That Would Contain More Techniques Than Some Of Your Other Hand Forms Would Have.

I Know Its Not All About Forms, But One Should Always See 'everything' In Gung Fu.

KNIFE OR SPEAR OR ANY TYPE OF WEAPON TRAINING DEPENDS ON HOW REAL YOU TRAIN.

IF YOU TRAIN LIKE PANSIES, YOU WILL BE JUST THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I TRAINED IN ESCRIMA, WE USED REAL LIVE BLADES. WHY? FOR THE BEST TRAINING POSSIBLE. A LIVE BLADE WILL FORCE YOU TO RESPECT IT. OR YOU WILL BLEED ALL OVER THE PLACE.

POINT BEING, I MADE A MISTAKE ONCE WHEN MY ESCRIMA TEACHER LAUNCHED AN OVER HEAD ATTACK WITH A MACHETE AIMED AT MY HEAD. I PHUCKED UP AND GRABBED HIS HAND TO STOP HIS ATTACK AND ALL HE DID WAS PULL BACKWARDS AND SLICED MY EFFIN HAND. I STARTED BLEEDING ALL OVER.

YOU THINK I WOULD EVER MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN?

[diego]

yeah but it doesnt look like most of the weapon sets teach you much anyway

so a judo guy would probably be just as proficient with a blade or spear as you

but then he is not judo fighting... when did he spar with blades?!??!? ****it

[MightyB]

Mantis = 16 styles and 1 overarching theory or a blend of 17 styles
Eagle Claw = The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with the "wushu" of its day- Tan Tui
Choy Le Fut = Named after 3 masters...

Oops- I meant Fānziquán, not Tan Tui- The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with Fānziquán


Besides- playing video games with kung fu moves are more fun than actually learning kung fu

[David Jamieson]

everyone i train regularly with is chinese or half chinese.

we do kungfu and cross training.

edit: sorry, one dude is portugese, but he's been laid up for a while after he busted his knee.

[Jeffoo]

OK great inputs on this issue. Here's a Hypothetical for everyone.

I think most of us are in agreement that in order to compete for market share, etc. with TKD, etc. that Kung Fu has to change the way we do things.

So, as a teacher you've invested thousands of dollars in your own training, invested a substantial portion of your time. Now you want to teach and open your own school. Unless you are a multi-millionaire, your school needs to at least pay for its own bills and you for your time. Of course you love your kung fu and it would be even nicer to only teach kung fu all the time. This takes money. Plain and simple.

Now we live in the McDonald's society, so you doubt that anyone wants to train in the traditional methods anymore. So, being the enterprising person you are, you begin to combine forms into the essences of the style. You teach a lot less applications of the forms, again boiling down the mass of information you learned into some reliable, easy applications. Your fighters are cross trained to compete with the MMA styles that are so common.Instead of an 80 form, decade long curriculum (like you learned), you now have a 25 form 3-4 year curriculum with more simple and effective applications and a fighting system that works well in sport and real life. Students fill your classes. They're happy...you're happy.

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?

[golden arhat]

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?

and does it matter ? why ?

is "selling out" in order to boost finance increase effectiveness and shorten the length needed to do that really such a bad thing ?


(not to you jeffoo , of you can answer tho, just adding on to your question)

[wiz cool c]

None of the youth in Beijing are interested in any kind of kung fu. They like soccer, basketball, ping pong, table tennis, badmitten and video games. I know I teach a lot of them english.

[Jeffoo]

and does it matter ? why ?

is "selling out" in order to boost finance increase effectiveness and shorten the length needed to do that really such a bad thing ?


(not to you jeffoo , of you can answer tho, just adding on to your question)

yeah..that was my point too.

To clarify my point, would it make you any less of a teacher in the eyes of "tradition"?

Would you/Should you get the same respect if you taught this for a couple decades as the pure traditionalist?

[diego]

OK great inputs on this issue. Here's a Hypothetical for everyone.

I think most of us are in agreement that in order to compete for market share, etc. with TKD, etc. that Kung Fu has to change the way we do things.

So, as a teacher you've invested thousands of dollars in your own training, invested a substantial portion of your time. Now you want to teach and open your own school. Unless you are a multi-millionaire, your school needs to at least pay for its own bills and you for your time. Of course you love your kung fu and it would be even nicer to only teach kung fu all the time. This takes money. Plain and simple.

Now we live in the McDonald's society, so you doubt that anyone wants to train in the traditional methods anymore. So, being the enterprising person you are, you begin to combine forms into the essences of the style. You teach a lot less applications of the forms, again boiling down the mass of information you learned into some reliable, easy applications. Your fighters are cross trained to compete with the MMA styles that are so common.Instead of an 80 form, decade long curriculum (like you learned), you now have a 25 form 3-4 year curriculum with more simple and effective applications and a fighting system that works well in sport and real life. Students fill your classes. They're happy...you're happy.

Are you still a traditional school and if not; why?

If you streamlined your forms into fighting combinations, gave your students workable basics effective for the ring...ten years later these students will come to you for the traditional sets because they have the time and money to...teach kids to fight and teach old people how to move which many in the west need...people always throw out their hip etc when they hit senior, so I'm thinking things like tai chi would be very attractive for them...teach the essence of martial arts which is fighting but promote the artistic side and this imo would be a very succesfull traditonal school.