So I got to make dit da jow the other day

[Dale Dugas]

This is the PM that OTD sent to me when I asked him to cite the sources of his formula.

Dale
Thanks for your reply, I should have tagged the link to the post.
BTW I have been doing Jow/herbs since the 40's no disrespect to your credentials. I notice that on your jow preprations you only post minimial info in the contents.. Do you put all the contents (but not the actual amounts) on the bottles when purchased by a customer?
Again thanks for reminding me in the future to put the actual link in the post
OTD

Since the 40's??.

Total and utter BS on that.

If you have been doing herbs since the 40's then why are you taking others formulas and trying to make it look to others that they are your own? Y

How old are you if you have been doing herbs since the 40's? It would seem you would have learned something, like what herbs are poisonous and dangerous to use unless you have learned how.

I would very much like to know who you are and how old you are.

Im thinking you are a young kid who is way out of his league.

[OTD]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

The issue with putting out Jow info liek you did is that, you really should put out your own personal info too.
We all know Dale and his background, he puts his name there and here.
We know of his training with GM Chicoine and Sifu Painter.
You on the other hand, we don't know anything at all.

[Dale Dugas]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

I got many formula from teachers and herbalists over the years and have tweaked them using my background to produce superior formulas that are my own.

Unlike yourself I have the skills and knowledge to know that the formulas you are posting about are dangerous in the hands of someone who does not know.

As Ronin pointed out Im all over and use my name and post up where I can be found and what I do and have done.

How about yourself?

Man enough to step up and be counted as real versus net persona?

[Dale Dugas]

Dale
Nowhere in either posting of jow formulas did I imply or inferr that they were mine.
I would like it very much to be young again. I also notices on you web site for your jows you do not give owner credit from the translations of "old" receipes
of the jows ?
OTD

Spelling and grammar and googled formulas without citation.

Im again thinking he is a young man who is seeking.

[Henry123]

I would be extremly cautious of using cinnabar. From what I see in the formula the dosage seems extremly high.

[herb ox]

Better for us to examine exactly why one formula is better or worse (or in the case of OTD's formula - nearly impossible to make) than to make personal judgements and accusations toward one another. Please be civil, gentlemen.

OTD - keep bringing the formulas, man. This forum is a stronghold of recipes, though none have been so eager to present a recipe as you. You see the lions at the gate rearing to go. If you can represent, please do so. Otherwise tread carefully, for the Fuzi in our jow has left some of us a bit crazy


I-spectfully,

herb ox

[Dale Dugas]

Better for us to examine exactly why one formula is better or worse (or in the case of OTD's formula - nearly impossible to make) than to make personal judgements and accusations toward one another. Please be civil, gentlemen.

OTD - keep bringing the formulas, man. This forum is a stronghold of recipes, though none have been so eager to present a recipe as you. You see the lions at the gate rearing to go. If you can represent, please do so. Otherwise tread carefully, for the Fuzi in our jow has left some of us a bit crazy


I-spectfully,

herb ox

Sorry cannot agree with you here Herb Ox as an another internet troll (I say troll here meaning it does not post any information as to who it is, what it has trained in, and what formal or informal training it has in the subject it is posting in.) with apparently nothing more than a degree in google posting up with formulas that are full of highly poisonous herbs that are posted in huge amounts. Anyone making and using these formulas could be seriously hurt as the levels are way out of sight.

Hence I called the troll on its seemingly total lack of basic herbal knowledge. Even the treated forms of the herbs in these formulas still have some level of toxicity that has to be treated with respect and caution.

All it did was fire back that it was sorry for not citing where it took these formulas from in the first place rather than address the issue of poisonous herbs and their actions. Its postings are speaking to us all and they are telling us that it cannot comment in any capacity other than post up to make it appear knowledgeable.

Someone has to step in and call foul rather than sit back and say its all right. It is not and that is why I posted up what I have.

OTD has no clue to these formulas as it would have posted that information in the first place, hence its non ability to represent.

Its comment about the amount of cinnabar in the formula it posted not being dangerous points to either glaringly lack of judgment skills or pure idiocy.

[herb ox]

Brother Dale,

A troll is a troll and would still be a troll by any other name. Trolls reveal themselves with little or no provocation, and derive great pleasure from inciting the responses of a few. All I'm saying is, if OTD is a troll, you're feeding him candy.

I agree with your vigilance, don't get me wrong. But I still feel that we need to "rise above". That being said, perhaps you'd like to elaborate as to why these herbs are harmful. 20% of the people I know take fuzi internally (granted, the population I hang with are mostly related to TCM somehow), and ban xia is often taken internally as well.

With your jow wisdom, I'd rather see posts suggesting alternatives to the poisonous herbs - this is practical and applicable to our arts. For example, how about substituting ding xiang (clove) for she xiang (musk - endangered and very rare)? Of course, the quantity would have to be increased greatly, and the effect still wouldn't be quite the same, but perhaps by adding another herb, like shi chang pu (calamus) we can approximate the effect and have a jow that is more environmentally conscious.

peace

herb ox

[GeneChing]

No where do we require anyone to reveal anything about their identities to the public on this forum. Just because OTD chooses to remain anonymous and you don't is not grounds to call him (or her) a troll. It terms of being a poor representative, OTD doesn't have to represent anyone but OTD. Just because you represent someone, don't expect others to do likewise. It might just be one of your own students or teachers, testing your civility. I doubt that in this case, but let's just say it's happened before and you should always proceed cautiously. Such is the nature of the forum. It's part masquerade. There's a lot of fun to be had in that, if you temper your approach with this firmly in sight.

Now we all know that cinnabar was widely used in TCM and still is in some places, so to jump on some one for using cinnabar so is a bit excessive. Cinnabar is the very root of that witch-doctor mumbo-jumbo snake oil you all foist as medicine. Ok, just kidding. Seriously, cinnabar lies at the very core of TCM. It's where we get the word dantian. There are plenty of other toxic elements in TCM. There may be even more that we haven't yet discovered. That seems very likely. That's a major problem with TCM.

But back to your reaction Dale, let's examine the possible scenarios. #1. OTD is a troll. If so, then once again, herb ox is right. You are feeding him/her candy. #2. OTD is a n00b. If this is so, demanding his/her lineage is absurd. When a new kid walks into class, dumping on him/her is not going to gain allegiance. A softer touch is required. We seek to educate. If he/she is "is a young man who is seeking" it's our job to point him/her in the right direction. Besides, aren't we all still seeking? #3. OTD is an experienced TCM person, just fresh off the boat and doesn't know the hazards of cinnabar. The n00b rules apply here, with only a slight modification. OTD has answered with civility but just chosen anonymity. If someone doesn't know either of you, OTD comes off much more rational than Dale. Fortunately, we know Dale. We also know of his cross dressing ways but we won't hold that against him.

herb ox brings up excellent points about endangered species and about suggesting substitutes. That's really the way to do it. Teach by example, not accusation.

[Dale Dugas]

Gene, Herb Ox and others:

I'm actually not trying to come across as a hater but more often than not it boils down to frustration at dealing with unknown people spouting information that is questionable on many levels. Of course these people can chose to remain hidden. That is their right.

What I get upset at is where unknown people plagiarize formulas from other sources not cited that are full of rather dangerous herbs when used topically let alone internally. OTD mentioned a formula that he admitted via pm he took from another site belonging to someone other than himself.

He has no direct experience with formulating or experimenting with that formula and the others he listed or he would have made reference to that fact.

It makes me worry that someone is going to get their hands on this formula and then use it and some can have seriously adverse reactions to the poisonous herbs listed in OTD's formulas.

30 grams of Tian Nan Xing is insane to use. I would never use anything over 10 grams in a 3 gallon formula.

It is sad to see OTD post up information that could possibly hurt another person without any reference to safety as it pertains to using classical formulations. It almost seems the OTD does not care.

Maybe OTD is not a troll and maybe he is. The point is you have to be careful with what you post up on the net as there are going to be people who are going to run with it and use it and they could be hurt or injured.

[GeneChing]

I also think that the notion of TCM plagiary is troublesome. This is an entirely different topic but just for fun, let's pursue it a little. I do a lot of volunteer work for the Haight Ashbury Free Clinics. Our guiding motto is "Health Care is a right, not a privilege". Taking that premise to heart, I believe in socialized medicine and that the American drug companies are holding us hostage worse than any illegal drug cartel I know. That's another topic - a don't-get-me-started topic - but my point is that one of the things that I like about TCM is that many of the low level herbal remedies are OTC (not to be confused with OTD). They are accessible by anyone who chooses to make them. You don't need a license to make tiedajiu. Anyone can. Of course, this opens Pandora's box when it comes to formulas that might include elements like cinnabar. Should herbal remedies be regulated? Some are clearly dangerous. Tiedajiu could even be fatal if your allergic. What level of self responsibility is there here?

Of course, your criticism is slanted heavily by a English-language ethnocentric perspective. All of these formulas are readily available in Chinese from multiple sources. So many classic TCM and martial treatises provide all sorts of wacky formulas which are readily accessed by anyone who reads Chinese. And the Chinese have been notorious plagiarists since they invented the printed word.

[herb ox]

Wow, bodhitree posted some herbs and nobody took notice but to start a battle over sources and ingredients... sheesh.

FWIW, I'd like to go back to bodhi's jow formula and take a closer look at the ingredients, though he said some were missing.

Xue Jie (red crystal substance, crushed into a powder)
Hong Hua
Notoginseng (root crushed into smaller pieces)
Da Huang
Chi Shao (Red Peony Root)
Mo Yao (crushed)

This is actually a pretty good starting point for a homebrew jow - all the ingredients (with exception of xue jie, which is getting expensive and harder to find) are readily available and have a reasonably high margin of safety.

Xue jie is the dried sap of the Daemonorops palm and is very effective for moving stagnant blood, esp. in the liver. I've taken it internally to remedy some pretty severe blood stag headaches.

Hong Hua regulates the blood - I'm surprised not to see Tao Ren in the formula, as it often is paired with Hong Hua for a stronger invigorate blood effect.

Notoginseng (San Qi) is revered for it's unique ability to both invigorate blood and stop bleeding. It is suspected that San Qi is the main ingredient in the famous Yunnan Paiyao blood clotting powder.

Da Huang is also a great blood mover, while stopping pain and cooling inflammation. This is the herb that'll likely stain your hands yellow (which I proudly wear )

Chi Shao nourishes the blood while invigorating it.

Mo Yao helps to break up stagnation while regenerating tissue - I'm surprised not to see Ru Xiang (mastic) partnered with it, as the mo yao, ru xiang, xue jie combo is also famous for its strong effects. In fact, I used a modified version of the "Big Three" along with some other herbs to quickly and completely heal a naaasty HUMAN bite wound on my arm - the flesh was completely destroyed from the sheer force of the bite and I believe my formula sped things up considerably, and no scarring remains, save for a bit of discoloration that is fading with time. As a further side note, I verified the blood moving properties during this incident when I removed the silver-dollar sized patty of my herbal plaster from the site of injury. Much to my amazement the next day, the area in contact with the plaster was completely free of bruising, while a severe, dark purple bruise surrounded the area. I expanded my plaster coverage accordingly, and 2 days later the bruise had all but faded from view.

The above herbs could easily be ground fine and made into a plaster as well, or taken as a draft internally for severe internal bruising.

peace

herb ox

[jow yeroc]

Great info. Thank you.

[Great Mender]

When using stallion urine, I always include 7 pcs. of big spiders (with 7 stars on the back) and 150 gr. of moss on shaded side of wall...

Just kidding!!!!!