Technical Question for Grabbing Scenarios

[Takuan]

So...given a simplistic scenario...someone grabs your wrist - you shift your weight, go against the weak-point (thumb connection), use leverage & momentum & pull out of it. I know beyond a doubt this "trick" works against the strongest and heaviest people.

Wrong. You deck him in the face as hard as you can with your free arm.

[David Jamieson]

cops, bouncers and wrestlers would have answers to some of this.

chin na is almost always trained in an overtly controlled environment.

if you break out the "likely" stuff such as collar grabs with a full push, maul grabs, head grabs and work with real intense attacks, you can focus your chin na into the most likely situations.

wrist grabs really aren't terribly common. not saying they don't happen, just saying that short power often is the ticket on the street percussive bursts thrown at you, a lot of changes in what is being grabbed and if it goes long, then the long power starts to kick in where you have sustained holds on the ground to prevent strikes from coming in.

but, start at the start with newbs and work up to the more intense rbsd stuff when folks are comfy with their ability.

[No_Know]

Leverage and force or Leverage and subtlty might better be the list.

I think you said standard things. You should not Find the weak spot/point, but must go straight to working on it. There's only so many ways and understanding should be that you do not spend moments searching trying or thinking of where is the weak spot/area.

You might should get an Oh Sh...oot! feeling that a lock is being attempted. Then react according ly to Not being there. If locked utilize the already understood mechanics for that joint with that force reading into or factoring into it the changes in pressure and that the person will moveinto another technique--folding--keeping this locxk then putting a greater hurting on you.

It seems minimal might be appropriate leverage then force/subtlety.

Leverage per area is a learened/studied thing. but might need to bottomline be instinctual to go to when lock type moves are noticed conciously or subconciously.

No offense intended.

If I'm not a reality fight type person--as I merely theorize-ish, when you get done with them look at my say and hopefully there's something there for you.

I No_Know

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, the idea of circling your hand to break a grip works. I've used it to break grips in Shuai Chiao, BJJ, MMA, and Judo, so they even work in a gi. The key is not momentum, but body mechanics; and for what you're teaching it for, footwork. You need to use the footwork to get the body to move right if you want a woman to be able to do this to a stronger man.

You need to be thinking about what happens after she breaks the grips. I hope you're not foolish enough to try and teach a woman to fight a man. You need to work on escape methods.

Of all the women's self defense "Counters" I've seen, the only one I've ever put any stock in was the old butcher knife in the shopping bag trick.

[WinterPalm]

You think my brother, in the middle of a fit, was willing to be subdued? Or that my mom wanted to hurt him? The only thing missing was that he was activly attacking my mom. But he still "forced" her to act. I can asure you he was being very aggresssive and was not the least bit willing. He also had no problem with the idea of hutring her.

I'm going to guess you are speeking more of a police or security officer needing to subdue someone who is being violent, but not acting against the officer directly? It does change things, but not too signifigantly I think. Training designed to subdue a violent individule should, and usually does, include training for the perp to be focused on the detainer as well as if the perp is focused elsewere.

I just don't feel the average person out there would have any clue how to stop a properly applied submission. That is not to say everyone out there actually knows how to properly apply submissions or that they keep up on the training.

Yeah, I was talking more from a security perspective. Otherwise let them have it with a 1-2 and a kick to the groin!

I don't doubt the seriousness but I feel closing the gap is a different story in a situation where you are limited but the other is not. Of course, realistically, a shot here and there isn't going to be the end of the world...but in today's world of cameras and video, you could end up being the aggressor and lose your job.

[Ao Qin]

Thank you to everyone for responding to my question - I haven't had time yet to digest all the response but I do appreciate the feedback!

Just to clarify - I work within social services, so I can't hit someone back without losing my job (and I have the mortgage, two kids, home, etc.). I'm trying to understand the basic / raw / fundamental "principles" of getting out of a grab (according to the definitions I posted) without harming my assailant. From everything I've read / saw / experienced, the theory of "look for the weakness, use momentum / leverage" seems fairly valid. More latter...

Cheers - AQ

[No_Know]

You seem to be looking for the most basic. I wonder what you think of when you say momentum.

Momentum involving moving...I think you might be good with the formula you have but there can at least sometimes be more to the World than we think/understand--Be mindful of to where you move...Your new positioning...don't escape then be proud, Pride is a distraction. your point might be to get out of the grab type thing, but there is always thinking especially if you best them perhaps until they are away from you it is not necessarily over.

Don't win the battle just to lose the One battle that turns the tide and you lose the long-term try.

My say is comprehend where you'd like to end-up or at least note daner places so when you get guided there you might get to try to do something to avert their guiding.

You have your great resposibilities and very commendable attempt at understanding. I do not have the reality as you do. I did think it mattered.

Good luck/prayers/good hope.

Also, I see that that a grab can be closed--fingers overlap, open what is grabbed is bigger than there hand can close-on; assisted close--a sleeper hold (from shoulder to hand is a "V" usually applied to a head or neck...I call this assisted close all grabs might fall into these three categories.

A person can force the grab more closed to seperate a one joint grab (involving wrist, thumb, elbow, knee, ankle. You in your usual likeliness won't need all these but...

Multiple joint grab--Fingers/hand; pull apart, flex to loosen grab--an open hand.. A closed hand is good before jerkingtoward the opening.

The wrist is a joint. Too flexible for leverage. Firm the bridge between hand and forearm.

Force your fist or tense spearhandor tense open hand through, thrust through the grab. A twist during the thrust might benefit.

No_Know

[Ao Qin]

Again, thanks to everyone for responding to my topic.

I use this theory and practice in everyday real life - that's how I make my coin. (and trying to get a new job) - so those who do not, please do not respond.

Is this formulae valid? If not, please tell me why - look for weak-point, use leverage & momentum. I know about the psychological compenent as well (suprise, remail calm / use the element if surprise, he's commited, you are not, etc.).

All I want to know from all of the expert BJJ experts on the forum is whether or not CPI (Crisis Prevention Institute) has employed and satisfied current combative theory or not.

Thank you,

Kevin

[meltdawn]

hi Kevin! i'm in HK and been studying a bit of bjj for a short while (ok, obsessively), and we both practice Lung Ying so it is interesting for me to be able to reply to this topic.

i know the find weak point-use leverage & momentum thing works in a controlled environment (sporting/authority against objector/strong against weak), but i don't know how effective it would be outside that environment. i had some bad situations as a kid with chinna being used against me, but i WAS just a kid, and it fueled my desire for learning martial arts, but in sport bjj, even fighting against people my level, i am very hard-put to make these things work like lightning. so, i have lots of doubt that stuff will work on the streets unless it is practiced over and over and over... and over again. and i don't mean 3 months type of stuff.

i'm also going to do a seminar on Krav Maga (stoked! since i think it's Lung Ying core) so maybe i'll gain more knowledge about real-life hand-to-hand combat and get a better understanding of street use of martial arts. since i'm small and female, i'm not facing the type of attacks you men are... i think about real-life threats to my body every day, and train accordingly. so my objectives in training are to learn to destroy, not subdue. i can't afford that liability given my personal stats.

[Becca]

Yeah, I was talking more from a security perspective. Otherwise let them have it with a 1-2 and a kick to the groin!

I don't doubt the seriousness but I feel closing the gap is a different story in a situation where you are limited but the other is not. Of course, realistically, a shot here and there isn't going to be the end of the world...but in today's world of cameras and video, you could end up being the aggressor and lose your job.

In the private world, you get jail time for excessive force wether you started it, they started it or even if there was a witness, electronic or otherwise. This is something I have though on quite a bit. Of course, as a civil servant, you can't just walk away, either, and folks have been known to try to make any mark you leave on them look worse for court, maybe even add a few marks you didn't leave, so I can see your point.

[golden arhat]

hit them
with whatever limb you have available
hit them hard
hit them again
keep hitting them
keep hitting them until they are sobbing on the floor begging you to stop
hit him one more time
is he moving ? no ?
stop hitting him.

[greendragon]

Mantis108 was a good post, learn to shift your weight or "roll back" because you want to lead him off balance, also thinking on the up/down plane, dropping your weight can also take balance, Here is where to disengage or engage before he can re-set.
On the opposite side, closing distance, this is where sticking hands can be useful. To maintain contact and redirect his force, nuetralizing it, by turning your body. Always keep both feet planted, knees bent, back straight, stay calm and relaxed. Breath.
If you are grabbed, try to ascertain their intent and act accordingly.
Just two cents worth of ideas.

[WinterPalm]

In the private world, you get jail time for excessive force wether you started it, they started it or even if there was a witness, electronic or otherwise. This is something I have though on quite a bit. Of course, as a civil servant, you can't just walk away, either, and folks have been known to try to make any mark you leave on them look worse for court, maybe even add a few marks you didn't leave, so I can see your point.

Absolutely! And as trained martial artists, if we do go beyond the required force, we not only do a disservice to ourselves in terms of potential jail time, but we also do a disservice to the art we practice...some may agree or not to that last point but we do train for discipline and correct action in regards to violence.

Having a guy/woman, attack you, you disarm or stop them, give them a shot or two in the process of restraining them, that to me is fine. It is when you stomp and hurt once the threat is nullified.
And of course there are always lepers...I mean lawyers that will take the case of any criminal.

[Yum Cha]

Something else comes to mind. If you are dealing with grabbing, and can't hit back, you probably want to take steps to insure you won't get struck. Being that the attacker isn't harnessed by the same rules you are.

Stepping back all to often takes you right into the 'sweet spot' for a king hit.

Also, when people grab, they are usually pulling you. If you go into them, say with a big double handed push or similar barge technique, you add their pull to your momentum and it's not 'excessive force' to push someone away....

As with all things martial, the fundamentals of keeping the opponent off balance, and lateral movement to the side gates to avoid the big hits and kicks.

I think grabbing hair is a good option, and jerking the head around, it is disorienting and unbalancing, if of course, there is hair to grab.