Honest HFY Question-

[drleungjohn]

no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?

[Sauchi]

Hey DR.LJ,

Are you John Cresione?

Sauchi

[Mr Punch]

LOL, didn't see a 'yes' or a 'know' in that reply!

[drleungjohn]

Yes-Hi Matt how are you!!

How's things?

[Mr Punch]

Hey John, good thanks!

I'm going to answer your question:

Yes, they do.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey John, good thanks!

I'm going to answer your question:

Yes, they do.

Interesting, so does TWC. Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto demonstates it here:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp

[JPinAZ]

Hello all - Sorry to see how this thread turned out (and started).

no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?

IMO, when I first read this (regardless WHO posts it - I don't know John), if he was 100% genuine in his question, and always has been, why even post the first half "no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please..."?
It seemed to me he was trying to clear the air up front because of past performances of doing just this (tricks/bait & swtich). If not, why not just ask the question? To me, it seems like a bit of guilty concience to me (and I read this post before anyone else replied)

Then he writes exactly how he expects to be answered "black/white - yes/no" - doesn't leave much room for discussion either does it? To me, this really doesn't sound like someone that is genuinely out to have a conversation or after anything productive. And I'm trying to ignore all the HFY vs. TWC vs. the rest of the WC World crap - I really don't have time for that.

Now, I could be wrong in my first assumption, but why not just simply ask the question, or maybe even give a reason why up front? I can see where this might put someone on guard in posting on the thread.

Funny, before a HFY person even gave an answer (someone else did), this was posted:

Interesting, so does TWC. Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto demonstates it here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp

No offence inteded to the poster, but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?

Regards,
Jonathan

[Phil Redmond]

Funny, before a HFY person even gave an answer (someone else did), this was posted:



No offence inteded to the poster, but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?

Regards,
Jonathan

Hello, I made that post just responding to someone who posted that there was a Gwai Mah in HFY Biu Jee. How did you perceive that as something bad? I've never made a negative post about you guys.

[JPinAZ]

Hello, I made that post just responding to someone who posted that there was a Gwai Mah in HFY Biu Jee. How did you percieve that as something bad? I've never made a negative post about you guys.

Sifu Phil,

I never said this was something bad. Nor did I intend to say that you ever said anything negative about HFY as far as I know. My point more-or-less was that no one from HFY even gave the answer prior to you posting a comparison. I believe it was M.r Punch being a smart a$$, and I pretty sure we all know he is not from HFY.

IMO, each system should stand on thier own, as should they all. But all too often comparisons are being made and people are saying & drawing conclusions that they (HFY/TWC) are the same - and mostly without the necessary experience in BOTH systems to draw any conclusions.

Curious what you found 'interesting' and what made you draw a comparison by saying "TWC has that too" - what does this mean to say? Like Matt pointed out, a lot of MA's have Gwai ma.
And I'm not trying to fight with you here, I am really trying to understand the point and have a conversation.

Jonathan

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Phil,
I never said this was something bad. Nor did I intend to say that you ever said anything negative about HFY as far as I know. My point more-or-less was that no one from HFY even gave the answer prior to you posting a comparison. I believe it was M.r Punch being a smart a$$, and I pretty sure we all know he is not from HFY.

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

IMO, each system should stand on thier own, as should they all. But all too often comparisons are being made and people are saying & drawing conclusions that they (HFY/TWC) are the same - and mostly without the necessary experience in BOTH systems to draw any conclusions.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

Curious what you found 'interesting' and what made you draw a comparison by saying "TWC has that too" - what does this mean to say? Like Matt pointed out, a lot of MA's have Gwai ma.
And I'm not trying to fight with you here, I am really trying to understand the point and have a conversation.

Jonathan

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

[JPinAZ]

Hello Sifu Redmond,

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

Fair enough.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

I understand what you are saying here, and I can agree.
I also can see the similarities as well when I see pictures or videos of TWC and compare to HFY. And I also agree, they look even more similar when compared to YM WC. My point is more towards the fact that people make final decisions about the systems being 'the same system' when some don't even have one minute personal experience in one of the systems. (I could use victor as an example here - nothing personal toward him. His thoughts are well known, even proven on this thread) This type of thinking is rediculous IMO. And I'm not saying you are one of these people.

What I do find interesting is that one never hears this same thing from HFY people. I can see similarities, but I also see several differences - and that's just surface level! I am not making judgement nor saying one is better than the other (I only have exp. in HFY). But it is suprising that people outside of HFY want to say that HFY & TWC are the same.. Why not just say that the systems look similar on the surface, but until someone experiences both somewhat in-depth, how do we really know. Isn't it possible that past surface-level, they are indeed very different? But everyone is free to think as they wish.
Hah, guess I'm just rambling.

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

fair enough. And sure, I'm interested in all of WC. I wouldn't mind spending some time with someone that knows TWC to see similarities/differences between the systems myself. Until any of us do that, I don't see how it's fair to draw conclusions.

Regards,

Jonathan

[Mr Punch]

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? ... But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

LOL, or you could ask me...! But even you Phil, seem to be buying into the net circus here!

Well, sorry, yeah, I was being a smartarse. Why? Because the question had been around for a couple of days and one guy had answered (and yet not). Now, regardless of John's motives a yes or no answer would've ended this craziness right here. No negativity towards HFY, no negativity towards TWC, no probs, just a straight answer. But as soon as I saw the question it was inevitable that it would turn into this load of bullsh!t.

Sooo, I just thought I'd get the ball rolling with an honest answer (I thought I'd read about HFY having gwai ma somewhere - though TBH, I just plumped for any old answer): to provoke anybody who knew into giving the actual answer.

Now, here's the thing: as JPinAZ pointed out, a lot of people know I'm not HFY, and some may remember that I've baited them before. Why? Because it's funny!

I have no animosity whatsoever for HFY. I didn't know anything about them at all until I joined this forum. Contrary to what some seem to believe, not everybody's sifu's suckle them on the wing chun teat of 'HFY is crap' or 'TWC is nonsense' or whatever: my sifu steadfastly refused to say anything about any other lineages. Not like most the people on this board who say they don't but they do. He wouldn't. He always said, "Please go and try other lines," and hgave us dates of seminars from time to time with different folk (Maybe, since he never cared for the net, just maybe he'd never heard of HFY). Being a normal human and not into MA politics or any of this BS, this (going to different seminars, rolling/sparring with different people) was perfectly normal to me until I came online and discovered that you're all nucking futs!

Ever since I came to this forum every time anything about HFY was mentioned, the HFY people (Tony is probably the biggest culprit) go NUTS! I mean, the paranoia, the accusations, the crazed refusal to answer any question straight...! And I still really really honestly don't understand it. But it is still hilarious!

I'd like to know what HFY's about. I'd be interested to know the differences between it and some other lines. But I'm never going to know: all I've worked out so far is that most HFYers seem to have no idea of conventional human norms of behaviour, like presenting themselves, like conversation, like humour; that some people think HFY and TWC are similar and that this is a major insult to the Shaolin Temple and its cat; and that extrapolating from that, HFY kung fu is kind of like Woody Allen directing Jackie Chan doing the Ministry of Silly Walks!

Of course, once again, I'm joking. My humour is not to everyone's taste I know, and I know I'm going to get accused of being immature or some such. I still don't care: compared to this farce, I'm all growed up.

Incidentally, I still don't really know about the superficial similarities between HFY and TWC: I don't usually watch forms from other lines other than in a really cursory manner and I usually do it just to see, 'Ahh, OK, so some people do it like this', and then often I don't botehr to remember the details of which line it was. There's no point watching froms with an eye to any deeper conclusion if you don't have any instruction available in that style. I'd prefer to read what people with experience of what they're talking about write online than watching unrelated forms... but maybe that's just me.

I'd still love to find out more about any wing chun, meet any wing chun people (or any other art for that matter). And I still don't diss anyone seriously unless I've met them or unless they've really put up some bull**** (like saying 'This is boxing' when it isn't... or 'This is fighting' when it's chi sao...).

But for now, the answer to this thread is

Yes, they do.

Lock please!