Honest HFY Question-

[JPinAZ]

Hi Levi,

WC has indeed weathered some rather ludicrus events.

I think that the frustration found here is that it sometimes seems as though answers to questions asked are not always freely given. While it is certainly true that an in person meeting is better and would clear up questions more fully, it is not always possible to meet in person.

FWIW, things for all parties would probably go smoother if we discussed what we could and left other things alone. While it is fine to direct someone to a book or a class or seminar, one should still, IMO, answer the questions posed to the best of ones ability. Not saying that some here have not done so, just expressing what may account for some of the frustration and perceived uncivil behavior on all sides.

WC is a family and as such will always have the black sheep and strange uncles and aunts. Lord knows I am like the unwanted red headed stepchild and rarely even get invited to the family reunions

I am not sure I understand your point here. If one points to a book to save writing reams of identicle information here, I think that is the easiest way to share something that is already well covered and documented elsewhere. Unless you suggest we write pages and pages of the same material so a question is fully answered here as well?

Also, I am not sure I agree that all questions have to be answered 'in full' here, nor do I think this is even possible without face-to-face interaction. If some information is withheld, maybe that is because the person sharing the information just doesn't feel the recipient is ready for the answer. Or, maybe the information is being given in layers so it is easier to absorb (just like in the classroom).
OR, maybe it is just as simple as you can't have everything for free, sometimes if you want to ride the bus you have to sooner or later buy a ticket. Maybe this is what you expect when making statements like "answers to questions asked are not always freely given"

And if it's not possible to meet in person, then maybe that is just the way it is and one shouldn't get 'frustrated' if they are not getting all the information they are requesting (not singling out any one particular individual with this statement, this is just a general statement). And just because a question is asked, doesn't mean it has to be answered. Or, if it is, it doesn't mean it has to be answered in the fashion expected. But I feel a lot has been shared here on this thread, even is some don't feel it's enough (?)

[Sihing73]

Hello JPinAZ,

Fair enough but then why bother to post here at all? If the receipient is not ready for the answer then it is kind of pointless to come to a public forum like this, which is for the discussion and promotion of the art of WC, and then not pass on that knowledge or answer. Kind of reminds me of an old boss I had, he would hold meetings and constantly tell us he could tell us the answers about what was happening in the company, but was not going to do so at that time. I left those long meetings knowing no more, and perhaps less, than I did going in. To me a complete waste of time and effort. I mean why hold the meetings in the first place

As to refering to a book, why should anyone have to go out and purchase something in order to get a question answered. Sure, I can see if one really wants to delve deeper into something then a book, or other reference materials are invaluable. But, it does not seem fair for someone to come onto a public forum which is where people join to discuss things, and then say we have the answer to that but you have to go buy our book in order to understand. Seems like one of those get rich quick infomercials on late night T.V. Also, what happens if the answers are not found, is a refund given?

Certainly no one has a monopoly on the truth. My point is pretty simple really:

If one is not really interested in sharing or discussing then why both posting here at all? There are pleny of people here with much valued knowledge to share and they are, for the most part, willing to do so without cost. Why should any one group which posts here require anyone to "buy the ticket" while being able to gain insight from others, equally viable for free?

[anerlich]

IMO Levi was spot on in his assessment of the need to understand the difference between what comes from the VTM and what comes from the HFY organization. As a HFY member I have been taught to have respect in general for all other MA families. Within the family we have a saying- Never say you are number one, but never say you are number 2 either. (or something along those lines) IMO this translates to give everyone respect but let no one push you around.

The problem here is that Benny Meng, and maybe others, are inextricably linked to both organisations.

You claim we "need to understand the difference", but actually the onus is on the HFY and VTM to ensure the differences, assuming they do exist, are clear to their audience(s), not the other way round., and that their members who have a foot in both camps declare which hat they are wearing at a particular time.

(forgive the mixed metaphors - maybe that should be "shoe" not "hat" )

In law or business, if you have a potential conflict of interest, you are expected to declare it, not make it other people's problem to find it out.

When the line is this blurred, expecting the audience to understand exactly which organisation (though I note the article is written by two persons, not an organisation) is doing the talking is asking rather too much.

I haven't read the article, and am unlikely to, but the statements made about HFY's completeness and superiority obviously belong in an advertisement, not an allegedly learned article. As long as that intent is made clear, there's no problem.

[osprey3883]

By the way, I just read an HFY article written by Benny Meng and Darryl Holt, from this websites magazine, Kung Fu/Tai Chi Sept/Oct. 2005 issue, under the article titled "One system to Counter all Styles", at the end of it the authors state "HFY remains untainted from its absolutely true approach to hand to hand combat. HFY is an example of a system to date that has what it takes to counter ALL martial arts styles provided the practitioner can approach true objectivity in it's employment", IMO that is a pretty bold statement of superiority as compared to not just the WC community but the the Martial Arts community as a whole.

Hello,
I wanted to expand on this a bit more. We have copies for sale of Kung Fu/Tai Chi at the kwoon on a regular basis. Shortly after this article came out GM Gee was in town for some training. The group went to dinner and one of the members had a question for GM Gee about some art in the magazine and GM Gee happened to find and read the article. At this time I was relatively new to the inner workings of the family and I had assumed that anything the VTM published relating to HFY had been passed through HFY HQ prior to publication. Boy was I wrong on that one. GM Gee became visibly upset by the article, and as is often the case GM Gee took it as an opportunity to educate us. GM Gee was so concerned that we understand his philosophy of "give respect to all but take no crap from anyone" that when the food came it sat untouched while GM Gee pressed the point.
IMO though many of the VTM staff are also HFY members GM Gee always gives them the room to communicate things from the VTM point of view, even when it is different than the HFY point of view.

Matt

[osprey3883]

The problem here is that Benny Meng, and maybe others, are inextricably linked to both organisations.

You claim we "need to understand the difference", but actually the onus is on the HFY and VTM to ensure the differences, assuming they do exist, are clear to their audience(s), not the other way round., and that their members who have a foot in both camps declare which hat they are wearing at a particular time.

(forgive the mixed metaphors - maybe that should be "shoe" not "hat" )

In law or business, if you have a potential conflict of interest, you are expected to declare it, not make it other people's problem to find it out.

When the line is this blurred, expecting the audience to understand exactly which organisation (though I note the article is written by two persons, not an organisation) is doing the talking is asking rather too much.

I haven't read the article, and am unlikely to, but the statements made about HFY's completeness and superiority obviously belong in an advertisement, not an allegedly learned article. As long as that intent is made clear, there's no problem.

I 100% agree with you. Definitely a slippery slope that can lead to many misunderstandings.

Here is a good example- Someone earlier in the thread brought up that HFY took it's Kiu Sau from Chi Sim.

As I understand it GM Gee has never learned any Chi Sim. The only Chi Sim connection to the family is that Master Meng studied from GM Hoffmann in the past. (and that WC is all inter related, but thats a different discussion)

All of the HFY Kiu Sau that I have been exposed to comes from our SNT. In fact you can break out the Kiu Sau concepts in our SNT section by section-
The opening and first section expose the student to the 10 bright points (reference points)
Second section covers the following Kiu Sau platforms-
Fau Kiu/Faat Sau
Deiu Ying
1/2 point
Bong Laap
Kwan Sau
Third section covers our Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau.

Definitely a huge emphasis on Kiu Sau in the HFY SNT.

BTW this is from my perspective as a HFY member, I am not affiliated with the VTM.
Matt

[JPinAZ]

Dave,

Your whole post makes no sense to me. So, you are basically saying, unless I completely share the entire system of HFY in it's totality, why post at all?? If not, then where do YOU draw the line for me? Who are you anyway? I post to share what I feel is appropriate at the time.

IMO there has been PLENTY of information regarding HFY (and TWC) shared on this thread. If you can't see that, then you're blind. You sound like you want EVERYTHING for free, spelled out in black and white. Who are you?? How do you rate? Why should I give you everything, if anything. It's not an all or nothing issue as you try to make it. That's why I said sooner or later one needs to hop on the bus. Or, just STFU and be happy with what is given. If I share, regardless how much or little, it's my choice. I'll share what I want and to what level I want. BFD. Stop your whining, you sound like a spoiled kid asking for the whole candy store.

As far as not being ready for the answer, sometimes 'experience is required', it's just that simple. Or maybe if someone is clearly not understanding the first bits of information shared, is there really any use in going further/deeper? Same as in the classroom. Didn't think this should be that difficult. Are you saying that YOU can explain your whole system of WC here so easily? If not, then why post at all... see how stupid that sounds?

As far as sharing and discussing, besides whinning about how much has or hasn't been shared, why not share something yourself? I haven't seen you add anything worthwhile to the discussion, except comlpaining. How about giving us your ideas of gate theory, or what you know of kiu sau, or heaven human & earth, or historical connections of the arts being discussed, or any other subject that has been covered in the past 20 or so pages.....

[Sihing73]

Hello JPinAZ,

Thank you for reinforcing my suspicions

You, and some others, seem to feel that you are picked on when you post here. I have received PM's complaining about some of the posts which do not agree with your groups, POV. What I attempted to bring to your attention is why this may be so. Yes, there have been some beneficial posts sharing some concepts and exploring some differences, but in the many pages of this thread, you can probably condense all of the "sharing of knowledge" into, at most, 2-3 pages. The remaining pages have ranged from slights to vague references to "mystery".

I personally have nothing against HFY, but I do find it interesting that some members, not all, post and get upset when others challenge or do not agree. Especially when they fail to share openly or answer questions. Again, I am curious as to why post here if unwilling or unable to share?

To be honest, I am not all that interested in HFY as I am unconvinced that it is the be all end all of WC. As I said before, if that were the case then your members would be able to demonstrate that in person and everyone who met you would come back and tell the rest of us they had found the promised land.

I interjected as a result of several PM's, mostly from your group, and tried to get a point across as to why people may not have the same idea of HFY as some of its members. If I am whinning then so be it.

As to sharing, I admit I have nothing to share as I practice neither HFY nor TWC. Although, I could ramble on for say, 10 pages just to get the point across while really saying nothing

I am content with my WC and feel it suits me well. I admit to one time being interested in learning more about HFY but to be frank, the attitudes and unwillingness to share openly has turned me off a bit.

Perhaps one day I will meet someone from your line in person and we can have tea and discuss our approaches in a beneficial manner. However, it seems obivious to me that an internet forum is not condusive to doing so, at least not for me.

I wish you all the best and invite you to visit me should you ever get to Atlanta. Perhaps we are not as far apart as it seems and may be able to learn something from one another.

Oh, yes, I am no one of any consequence and probably know far less than you and many others on this forum. However, I am open to learning and certainly would not proclaim my own superiority unless I could show that in ALL situations, and if you ask me a question which I know the answer to, I won't refer you to a book instead of answering.

[sihing]

No offence guys, but couldn't you say that about any martial art if it's applied by a good enough practitioner? Chuck Liddel has the one system (Hawaiian Kempo) to counter all styles, except maybe lap-dance fu.

Everybody's excited about the arts they practice, and can tend to make big claims about them. (Don't make me dredge up some of your past posts here, James ) But what does that really say?

If the practitioner can approach true objectivity in it's employment is the rub. That's true of HFY or any other WCK or martial art. If you're good enough, you can smoke anyone coming at you. Being good enough is the hard part.

-Wayfaring
"dedicated to whipping up my 'tude to proper lofty standards"

Hi Way,

You are right in the fact that I too have made statements and claims in the past regarding the lineage I was involved with, hopefully I've learned since then.
The past two years have been a big eye opener for me WC wise. Firstly, I do not believe in the words "best", "most", "deadliest", and so forth. IMO, the WSL method I am training in is very effective and efficient for what it is there for, but if I sit on my a$$ and do nothing, it is no good to me. The people I have met, espeically my bro Ernie (as well as a bunch of others), are excellent teachers, fighters, practitioners and human being's but they are not perfect nor do I worship them. I respect them for who they are and appreciate their skills and willingness to share it with me, and I express that opinion here.

The thing about the article, is that it talks specifically about the absence of individualizing the art (what Liddel has done with Kempo), but rather one should become the art (HFY), and that if one does this they become almost invincible. To me that is funny, as no fighting art or science can do that.

James

[UKBBC]

You know what? For those that are truly interested, how about sponsoring a well respected volunteer to make a trip out west and meet for a real hands-on training weekend with a HFY group?

That way, we can have a true opinion as to whether HFY theories and concepts are truly a level above all other WC lineages and would provide a significant training benefit.

50 people donating $20 each should easily cover the trip! Put a poll up, this could save countless pages of debate.

[anerlich]

50 people donating $20 each should easily cover the trip! Put a poll up, this could save countless pages of debate.

Countless pages of debate are still cheaper than $20.

And either side could claim the "well respected volunteer" was hypnotised while he was there by the naysayers, and hypnotised before/after by the HFYers, should the resulting review not be totally in line with the complainants' desires.

Not serious, but I've seen wackier ideas presented as fact on this thread.

[Phil Redmond]

Countless pages of debate are still cheaper than $20.

And either side could claim the "well respected volunteer" was hypnotised while he was there by the naysayers, and hypnotised before/after by the HFYers, should the resulting review not be totally in line with the complainants' desires.

Not serious, but I've seen wackier ideas presented as fact on this thread.

Hey Andrew, I'm not sure if I'm respected or not but I do know a "little" about TWC so I'd love to personally compare. Maybe it could end this whole thing.
Phil

[anerlich]

Hey Andrew, I'm not sure if I'm respected or not but I do know a "little" about TWC so I'd love to personally compare. Maybe it could end this whole thing.

Phil, your attitude mixing politeness and restraint with a desire to ferret out the truth commands respect.

If there's a "send Phil Redmond to Arizona" fund, I'd certainly kick in USD20 (the exchange rate is working for me now, even).

[anerlich]

IMO though many of the VTM staff are also HFY members GM Gee always gives them the room to communicate things from the VTM point of view, even when it is different than the HFY point of view.

Sorry, to harp, but some of you guys said it was vital to understand the distinction between the VTM and HFY with respect to the aforementioned article.

So, was the article written from the POV of HFY or the VTM? Did GG get upset about the article because it conveyed the VTM POV, the HFY POV, or because it was simply OTT?

And if the VTM is not HFY why should the VTM's members who happen to do some HFY need "room to communicate things from the VTM point of view" from Garrett Gee? When as you say, they are two separate entities and shouldn't be confused, though as you also say, his implicit (if not explicit) permission is required for their VTM activities?

Are you sure BM and GG understand the distinction you brought up as being so important?

Sorry, but you aren't clarifying things, in fact the opposite.

[osprey3883]

Hello,
Maybe this will clear things up a bit. (quick disclaimer, this is all my perspective/understanding.)
The VTM as I understand it is an organization set up to research and document WC. Master Meng and his students set up the VTM at the behest of his Sifu and some of the senior YM student in hopes of better understanding/documenting the various WC lineages. Master Meng and the VTM staff have traveled to many different parts of the world in pursuing and documenting WC. The VTM has published many many articles based on their research into various WC lineages.
I believe Master Meng met GM Gee and the HFY lineage during his research. At this time Master Meng was already a Master level WC practitioner in the MY lineage. As I understand it Master Meng felt a strong connection with what GM Gee and HFY represented and he eventually became a disciple of the system.

HFY is a martial arts system and is only seeking to share HFY with the public. In my experience GM Gee presents HFY, he knows some people will relate to it and others won't.

re-

So, was the article written from the POV of HFY or the VTM? Did GG get upset about the article because it conveyed the VTM POV, the HFY POV, or because it was simply OTT?

Although it was a VTM article it was not clear that this was the case, IMO GM Gee was upset because the article could be percieved as showing a general disrespect to the MA community from HFY, which is not the case.

Matt

[Ultimatewingchun]

This thread - like EVERY OTHER THREAD that has ever dealt with HFY - has become another battle of truth vs. marketing scheme. No matter how hard some of us tried to make it a clean discussion without rhetoric or politics.

BECAUSE EVERYTHING OF IMPORTANCE TO STAND UP FIGHTING THAT HFY HAS IS COVERED BY TWC...

....which is what I was getting at EVERY time I said that the two systems are ESSENTIALLY one-and-the-same.

(Yeah, HFY might be TWC with some more "theory" - but what does that extra theory amount to in the end? My theory: hardly anything).

And then some HFY posters have the audacity to complain to moderators for what they have brought upon themselves: scorn. And ridicule. It was like pulling teeth, JP....just to get you and the others (and I'm still laughing at the way Savi disappeared from the thread once I started to answer his challenge about the HFY/TWC comparison)....like pulling teeth at the dentist to get you to actually talk in plain English. In fact, at many turns during the early and some of the middle pages of the thread it was like pulling teeth to get you to talk details at all - for you constantly tried to stop the conversation with a "you need to read the book or come to a seminar" routine.

And you constantly tried to play the ridicule game with me because I wasn't keeping up with all YOUR..(as in HFY) esoteric terminology. Until I began to make it very clear that I did know what you were talking about waaaay more often than you were comfortable with once the VEILS were removed. That the concepts were not foreign to me.

And so you felt compelled (and perhaps even a bit intrigued) for awhile to respond with some clarity - so that the conversation/discussion/comparison became just that: a conversation. And not just a marketing opportunity.

It's too deliberate, overbearing, and consistent not to be part of the overall plan as to how to "market" this "superior" system that loves to talk in riddles and refer people to books filled with tons of more theories and Chinese aphorisms - and more riddles...all written in such a way that it's impossible to pin down without learning a whole new language, so to speak...ie.- you have to come to a seminar or read the book that you won't really understand anyway unless you do go to the seminar because our GM Gee doesn't want anything on film.

How cute!