Honest HFY Question-

[Liddel]

Liddel
if you dislike that book so much that my KF brother bought for you... show some class and pass it on to someone else.

Guy, this is a prime example of your attitude towards this forum....

You've taken offence to what ive said and its offended you to the point of seeing something thats not there....basically the state of this entire thread LOL.

Take a breath, relax...

I NEVER posted my POV positive or otherwise towards the book. I only said there are no easy answers from you guys, which IMO is shown in the book.

I read it cover to cover, even got passed the negitive assumptions of my own lineage of VT, written within. which i found were well off base.

Do i care ?... No. Should you ? No. Chill out mate.

I give Dave props for sending me a copy, but that dont give you 200 bucks for him passing 'GO'....

No wonder you do Kung Fu, guy looks at you wrong and your ready to roll.... just like this thread with a simple question that you've turned into a "war of words".

If a guy baits you (or thats how you percieve it) walk away....in life and on the forum.

DREW

[JPinAZ]

LOL, you mean like "no bait and switch, honest question..." etc

I thought I was pretty clear that this wasn't my intention, but you can read into it whatever you want.

It sounded to me like the poster of the Ryan Kennedy clip might have thought it worthwhile pointing out that the section existed in TWC's form. After that, in the absence of answers, we had a discussion amongst various TWCers about the history of that section in TWC and who learned it when. Probably only interesting to TWCer's, but some discussions are like that. AS a TWCer, I found it interesting. And civil, up to that point.

Fine, but there was a comparison made and was just curious why (touched on this in the previous post to Phil).
No big deal - I have no problem with the discussion regarding TWC or anything else. But thanks for the clarification.

If you, osprey and $5 Tony can see sinister overtones in that, you need therapy.

We each stand on our own. We each have our own thoughts/idea/etc just like you do. Please don't group us together - I am sure you wouldn't like it if I grouped you and other TWC people together. I bet you have your own thoughts and ways of thinking that differenciate you from them.

Besides, I didn't say anyting about 'sinister overtones'. It is quite clear from John's latest few post, it is clear he pretty much dislikes the HFY lineage and it's members. Which is fine, each person can make up his own mind and is entitled to thier own feelings. But now I would ask, I can understnad a little of why someone from HFY would be hesitant to engage him in conversation if this is how he feels (which he probably isn't interested in anyway)?
Disregarding the fact htat the initial post was a bit off, demanding, presumptious, etc.

If you guys didn't jump all over anyone that posts anything + or -, about HFY, people would probably ignore and forget you. Perhaps this animosity comes out of fear of fading into irrelevance?

I was just trying to have a conversation - am I part of this 'you guys'?

[anerlich]

I was just trying to have a conversation - am I part of this 'you guys'?

I guess that's a fair call. I made the mistake of assuming you had the same attitudes that Tony and osprey displayed. They apparently made that mistake about all non-HFY posters.

I thought I was pretty clear that this wasn't my intention, but you can read into it whatever you want.

I can accept that, though then Tony and osprey would have to ask why they couldn't grant John C the same courtesy when he went to pains to make his intentions clear.

Please don't group us together - I am sure you wouldn't like it if I grouped you and other TWC people together. I bet you have your own thoughts and ways of thinking that differenciate you from them.

Fair enough. AS I said before you sound reasonable. Tony and osprey, viewed as individuals, both sound like hypervigilant obsessive shadowjumpers.

[drleungjohn]

ok-one more time-and then I am done here with this-it is way too much energy and no positive direction or result-

-Based on History on this Board-anything HFY related turns into a flame war and ****ing contest
-Based on History of participants-it is hard to have a decent discussion on HFY related anything before it goes bad

So how to avoid this and still find out-ask a question or not-if you choose not-then you get no answer-if you ask a question and try and create a scenario where there can be no discussion-and no ****ing contest-you might have a chance--

So how do you phrase it-and who is doing the asking-and in my opinion-just posting a question like this
HFY Question-does HFY have a Gwai Ma in their Biu Jee? Is way too opened and can be construed as questionable then how I wrote it-to quell any discussion,bs,supposition-etc-

Now-

Yes- Jonathan you don't know me so here it is-I dislike wanna be tough guys,wanna be gangsters and wanna be triad members-did I include you-no.
I have seen my share of wanna be warm up suits and chains-and when they start shooting their mouths off in public-usually somebody who is a real somebody just punches them in the face and walks out

History here shows knee jerk reactions,secrecy,come see for yourself marketing,flowery terminology to separate not bring together and one lineages oral history as fact -does not promote brotherhood either-
And for the record-I don't believe the Leung Bik story as well--

Never have I been disrespectful to Gee sifu,or HFY lineage.Educated man,well educated martial artist who can do what he says from what I have seen-In Ohio,in Arizona and in New Jersey- in how he teaches and explains himself-and in the few conversations I have had with him over lunches,informal talks in between,etc-

So where is my low opinion of HFY lineage shown? If HFY oral history is fact then it does come from the triads-like Hung,Southern Praying Mantis and others.

But the Hung guys and SPM folks I know don't act like everything they do,including speaking to others, is some big secret that can't be explained and won't be shown unless you show up-and you would not have to worry about the public vs private version you are getting..

None of this in any or my words has anything to go with Gee sifu or HFY lineage

So that's it-it was simple question for my own knowledge.
Done.

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Phil,
I never said this was something bad. Nor did I intend to say that you ever said anything negative about HFY as far as I know. My point more-or-less was that no one from HFY even gave the answer prior to you posting a comparison. I believe it was M.r Punch being a smart a$$, and I pretty sure we all know he is not from HFY.

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

IMO, each system should stand on thier own, as should they all. But all too often comparisons are being made and people are saying & drawing conclusions that they (HFY/TWC) are the same - and mostly without the necessary experience in BOTH systems to draw any conclusions.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

Curious what you found 'interesting' and what made you draw a comparison by saying "TWC has that too" - what does this mean to say? Like Matt pointed out, a lot of MA's have Gwai ma.
And I'm not trying to fight with you here, I am really trying to understand the point and have a conversation.

Jonathan

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

[JPinAZ]

Hello Sifu Redmond,

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

Fair enough.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

I understand what you are saying here, and I can agree.
I also can see the similarities as well when I see pictures or videos of TWC and compare to HFY. And I also agree, they look even more similar when compared to YM WC. My point is more towards the fact that people make final decisions about the systems being 'the same system' when some don't even have one minute personal experience in one of the systems. (I could use victor as an example here - nothing personal toward him. His thoughts are well known, even proven on this thread) This type of thinking is rediculous IMO. And I'm not saying you are one of these people.

What I do find interesting is that one never hears this same thing from HFY people. I can see similarities, but I also see several differences - and that's just surface level! I am not making judgement nor saying one is better than the other (I only have exp. in HFY). But it is suprising that people outside of HFY want to say that HFY & TWC are the same.. Why not just say that the systems look similar on the surface, but until someone experiences both somewhat in-depth, how do we really know. Isn't it possible that past surface-level, they are indeed very different? But everyone is free to think as they wish.
Hah, guess I'm just rambling.

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

fair enough. And sure, I'm interested in all of WC. I wouldn't mind spending some time with someone that knows TWC to see similarities/differences between the systems myself. Until any of us do that, I don't see how it's fair to draw conclusions.

Regards,

Jonathan

[Mr Punch]

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? ... But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

LOL, or you could ask me...! But even you Phil, seem to be buying into the net circus here!

Well, sorry, yeah, I was being a smartarse. Why? Because the question had been around for a couple of days and one guy had answered (and yet not). Now, regardless of John's motives a yes or no answer would've ended this craziness right here. No negativity towards HFY, no negativity towards TWC, no probs, just a straight answer. But as soon as I saw the question it was inevitable that it would turn into this load of bullsh!t.

Sooo, I just thought I'd get the ball rolling with an honest answer (I thought I'd read about HFY having gwai ma somewhere - though TBH, I just plumped for any old answer): to provoke anybody who knew into giving the actual answer.

Now, here's the thing: as JPinAZ pointed out, a lot of people know I'm not HFY, and some may remember that I've baited them before. Why? Because it's funny!

I have no animosity whatsoever for HFY. I didn't know anything about them at all until I joined this forum. Contrary to what some seem to believe, not everybody's sifu's suckle them on the wing chun teat of 'HFY is crap' or 'TWC is nonsense' or whatever: my sifu steadfastly refused to say anything about any other lineages. Not like most the people on this board who say they don't but they do. He wouldn't. He always said, "Please go and try other lines," and hgave us dates of seminars from time to time with different folk (Maybe, since he never cared for the net, just maybe he'd never heard of HFY). Being a normal human and not into MA politics or any of this BS, this (going to different seminars, rolling/sparring with different people) was perfectly normal to me until I came online and discovered that you're all nucking futs!

Ever since I came to this forum every time anything about HFY was mentioned, the HFY people (Tony is probably the biggest culprit) go NUTS! I mean, the paranoia, the accusations, the crazed refusal to answer any question straight...! And I still really really honestly don't understand it. But it is still hilarious!

I'd like to know what HFY's about. I'd be interested to know the differences between it and some other lines. But I'm never going to know: all I've worked out so far is that most HFYers seem to have no idea of conventional human norms of behaviour, like presenting themselves, like conversation, like humour; that some people think HFY and TWC are similar and that this is a major insult to the Shaolin Temple and its cat; and that extrapolating from that, HFY kung fu is kind of like Woody Allen directing Jackie Chan doing the Ministry of Silly Walks!

Of course, once again, I'm joking. My humour is not to everyone's taste I know, and I know I'm going to get accused of being immature or some such. I still don't care: compared to this farce, I'm all growed up.

Incidentally, I still don't really know about the superficial similarities between HFY and TWC: I don't usually watch forms from other lines other than in a really cursory manner and I usually do it just to see, 'Ahh, OK, so some people do it like this', and then often I don't botehr to remember the details of which line it was. There's no point watching froms with an eye to any deeper conclusion if you don't have any instruction available in that style. I'd prefer to read what people with experience of what they're talking about write online than watching unrelated forms... but maybe that's just me.

I'd still love to find out more about any wing chun, meet any wing chun people (or any other art for that matter). And I still don't diss anyone seriously unless I've met them or unless they've really put up some bull**** (like saying 'This is boxing' when it isn't... or 'This is fighting' when it's chi sao...).

But for now, the answer to this thread is

Yes, they do.

Lock please!

[duende]

So how to avoid this and still find out-ask a question or not-if you choose not-then you get no answer-if you ask a question and try and create a scenario where there can be no discussion-and no ****ing contest-you might have a chance--

So how do you phrase it-and who is doing the asking-and in my opinion-just posting a question like this
HFY Question-does HFY have a Gwai Ma in their Biu Jee? Is way too opened and can be construed as questionable then how I wrote it-to quell any discussion,bs,supposition-etc-

Simple John... cut out your own BS and do the math.

You can't proclaim us as being the same thing as TWC, and then ask us about our Biu Jee form.

By your own assessment you already have the answer.

So where is my low opinion of HFY lineage shown? If HFY oral history is fact then it does come from the triads-like Hung,Southern Praying Mantis and others.

But the Hung guys and SPM folks I know don't act like everything they do,including speaking to others, is some big secret that can't be explained and won't be shown unless you show up-and you would not have to worry about the public vs private version you are getting..

To be brief...

The Secret Societies of the time during the boxer rebellions and earlier, and the Triads of today are not the same thing. While the Triads did form later out of some secret societies... the initial founding had nothing to do with gangsters and criminal behavior. It was about fighting and imposed government rule by the Manchurians.

But regardless, this has nothing to do with why we would keep some things private.

If you want to learn HFY, then you have to put in the time and energy and EARN IT. It's that simple. However, we do not do seminar certifications.

This is because Kung Fu takes years to learn. With every new layer passed on, the mind must grasp the knowledge and the body must develop it's physical expression. What we in HFY refer to as Body Karma. This simply is not possible via seminars.

As for your other statements.... I'm just going to let them go for now.

But let's be clear here, you are seriously fooling yourself if you think you are a friend to the HFY lineage.


And finally...

Once again..

TWC and HFY are not the same thing. We may share a few general shapes that look similar on the surface, but once you have an understanding of HFY Sup Ming Dim and Tin Yan Dei Body awareness, then it's obvious that they are NOT the same.

We are close cousins and somewhere, somehow in the past our lineage's paths crossed. But TWC and HFY do not share the same system's core concepts and expression.

As I said before... any one of my beginner students can easily see the difference between TWC body mechanics and HFY System expression.

You can not see the difference because your understanding of HFY is superficial at best.

Name drop all you want, but you're kidding yourself if your think otherwise.

[couch]

We are close cousins and somewhere, somehow in the past our lineage's paths crossed. But TWC and HFY do not share the same system's core concepts and expression.

As I said before... any one of my beginner students can easily see the difference between TWC body mechanics and HFY System expression.

You can not see the difference because your understanding of HFY is superficial at best.

Name drop all you want, but your kidding yourself if your think otherwise.

I think it's the same. End of discussion. Stop ripping off TWC's stuff.

,
Kenton Sefcik

[UKBBC]

It is accepted that the variations in interpretations of Wing Chun is part and parcel of Yip Man lineages, despite having common core forms and principles.

I fail to see why people can't accept that HFY and TWC can have different interpretations, even if they once had a common ancestor and share common core forms.

[osprey3883]

Hello,
John (drluengjohn) I took your question based on some of your previous assertions about the HFY and TWC connection. We all know discussions about this in the past have had interesting undertones, and I assumed the same thing may be present in this disussion as well, especially with people not associated with HFY talking about what it does or does not have.

I fail to see why people can't accept that HFY and TWC can have different interpretations, even if they once had a common ancestor and share common core forms.

This is a great way to address this, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. IMO WC VT Weng Chun etc all come from the same source if you go back far enough. Unfortunately much of it was undocumented, so IMO all we can do is share our oral histories and give each other room to live.

Matt

[KPM]

all we can do is share our oral histories and give each other room to live.

Matt

No. That's not all we can do! We can also compare and contrast content, strategies and tactics. But with the HFY family being so secretive and tight-lipped, that becomes very difficult to do!

[horserider]

Why not call it as it is and be done with it.

HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

No one would care UKBBC if all they claimed was a different interpretation of a common twc- hfy ancestor. However they claim far,far more than that . Read their book or the years of postings they have made.

[duende]

Why not call it as it is and be done with it.

HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

No one would care UKBBC if all they claimed was a different interpretation of a common twc- hfy ancestor. However they claim far,far more than that . Read their book or the years of postings they have made.

Our oral history goes back to the Shaolin temple. Yes this is true. Many other WC lineages also share this common ancestry.

As for Battle arrays. Are you naive enough to think that breaking up the rules of engagement into timeframes is a modern concept???

Or are you the type of WC'r who expects your opponent in a fight to immediately start from a Chi Sau position???

In HFY we have Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu and Chi Sau. All have certain tools and individual rolling platforms that deal with different ranges of combat and facings... Or TIMEFRAMES. Unlike strictly Chi Sau which just deals with close range and primarily utilizes Tan, Bong, Fook.

With all due respect, TWC has neither Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau.

FWIW, none of my friends who study under GM Chan, do anything remotely similar to HFY. Do they care that we are different?? No. They just want to be able to fight!


What do you really care about Horserider?? That we have a book out and you don't?? That we have made more posts on KFO then you???

I suggest you get over it.

[JPinAZ]

Why not call it as it is and be done with it.

HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

No one would care UKBBC if all they claimed was a different interpretation of a common twc- hfy ancestor. However they claim far,far more than that . Read their book or the years of postings they have made.

And people wonder why every time there is a thread that involves HFY it tends to go downhill....... And so many people blame it on the members of HFY. Such a joke.