Honest HFY Question-

[osprey3883]

Horserider,

HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

Interesting theory, but why the hell would GM Gee come up with some new systems when he already has an extensive background in Wu Tang? Anyone who has spent any time with GM Gee would definitely see the above statement as a joke.

As a total side note I have studied MA in a chinese "MMA" environment in my past and the HFY system IMO is way too cohesive to be mixed and matched from GM Gee's background. Just my 2 cents.

Matt

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . With all due respect, TWC has neither Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. . . . .

Please explain Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. Since you don't know the inner workings of TWC like I do I can tell you whether or not we have the same things under a different terminology.

[duende]

Please explain Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. Since you don't know the inner workings of TWC like I do I can tell you whether or not we have the same things under a different terminology.

Phil,

At work so I will have to make my reply short.

I'm sure you are aware of the importance of bridging at all ranges. In my post to Horserider, I was NOT trying to imply that TWC is "lacking" in this area, only to further demonstrate that how our perspective systems understand and train these tactics are unique unto themselves.

In my meetings with TWC Sifu's, I have yet to see any of them use the same techniques, concepts or drills with regards to HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. On the flipside, I've no doubt that TWC also utilizes concepts and principles just as well that HFY doesn't.

I'll answer your question better, when I get free from work.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

At work so I will have to make my reply short.

I'm sure you are aware of the importance of bridging at all ranges. In my post to Horserider, I was NOT trying to imply that TWC is "lacking" in this area, only to further demonstrate that how our perspective systems understand and train these tactics are unique unto themselves.

In my meetings with TWC Sifu's, I have yet to see any of them use the same techniques, concepts or drills with regards to HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. On the flipside, I've no doubt that TWC also utilizes concepts and principles just as well that HFY doesn't.

I'll answer your question better, when I get free from work.

Thanks, I'll be looking for your reply. Maybe we can exchange clips by email to see the differences in bridging drills/concepts.

[duende]

To Phil Redmond and fellow WC'ers,

First off let me just say that in my descriptions that follow I'm not trying to one up any other lineage. I don't care for that kind of politics and ego nonsense.

I am just trying to share in a positive neutral way with you what I've both learned in HFY and experienced having met with Sifu's and students from many other WC families. And like many of my HFY brothers, I didn't start my WC journey in HFYWC, but in YMWC.



Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu along with what we in HFY sometimes refer to as "Tan Bong Fook" Chi Sau all three together make up HFY Chi Sau.

It is not a "sensitivity/reaction" drill like other WC lineages, although of course this is part of it. To put it very simply, Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu, and Chi Sau all represent different ranges of combat. Another words.. In HFY Chi Sau is used for fighting. But it is much more complicated then that, as there is different body mechanics and tools that must be learned to fully express each one properly.

Just like you all have Chi Sau and use drills such as poon sau and tools such as Tan Bong and Fook to practice what is generally known as Chi Sau. So does HFY have rolling platforms, drills and tools that are specific to Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.

But the notion of Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu is not unique to HFY. Many other Southern KF systems also employ Kiu Sau. Most notably Southern Praying mantis and Hung Gar. You can find variations of it in most systems that trace their history back to Southern Shaolin temple, because Kiu Sau is a gift from the knowledge of our Shaolin ancestors.

But somehow during around 1850 during the time of the WC Opera troops, Kiu Sau started fading away, Maybe it didn't translate good on boats I don't know... but now you have no Kiu Sau at all in most modern day WC.

All you have is the close-range time frame... what is now generally considered Chi Sau. I've said this before, and I'll say it again here. Chi Sau without Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu is like having an old 3 speed standard transmission in your car with out any first or second gear. Just third gear.. So that when you try to start it up and use it... you just stall out.

THIS is why most WC out in the public today think that Chi Sau is not for fighting, and only a "sensitivity drill"

Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu provide the tools to bridge and "close the gap" at longer ranges and different angles of facing. They also provide a strong Shaolin foundation of grappling and Chi Na tools based on TIN YAN DEI body structure for what we refer to as "momentary control". As opposed to Jiu Jitsu and wrestling that utilizes "fully-committed control".

That is the best that I can describe Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. Many of our members who came from other systems will tell you the same thing... especially the ex-Sifu's.

They will all tell you that Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu understanding can not be written in words. And instead must be experienced first hand through physical interaction.

That's it for now.

Best,

Alex

[LoneTiger108]

...because Kiu Sau is a gift from the knowledge of our Shaolin ancestors.

But somehow during around 1850 during the time of the WC Opera troops, Kiu Sau started fading away, Maybe it didn't translate good on boats I don't know... but now you have no Kiu Sau at all in most modern day WC.

Alex, I do love these generalised comments that ultimately insult many of the Wing Chun family. What do you know about 'all' of the Wing Chun families?

Actually, a better question for you is, what do you 'think' Chum Kiu is?

It's all great to find another way of learning, I commend people that strive for improvement, but I feel that the majority of practitioners that switch from WC to other 'ways' tend to not have a firm understanding of WC in the first place. This comment from you says exactly that I'm afraid!

No offence to you intended, but this thread is in need of a reality check imo...

[anerlich]

They also provide a strong Shaolin foundation of grappling and Chi Na tools based on TIN YAN DEI body structure for what we refer to as "momentary control". As opposed to Jiu Jitsu and wrestling that utilizes "fully-committed control".

LOL at this "analysis" of Jiu Jitsu.

First off let me just say that in my descriptions that follow I'm not trying to one up any other lineage. I don't care for that kind of politics and ego nonsense.

But somehow you manage to do it anyway. Statements like that above trivialise other arts. There are a wide variety of types and degrees of control used in Jiu Jitsu, and they differ further when you treat it as JJ used in MMA. This sort of sweeping statement with generalisations about things your statements show you know zip about, coupled with hifalutin jargon and neologisms, erode your credibility.

Many of our members who came from other systems will tell you the same thing... especially the ex-Sifu's.

I'm sure the ex-Sifus are an illustrious bunch

[KPM]

And people wonder why every time there is a thread that involves HFY it tends to go downhill....... And so many people blame it on the members of HFY. Such a joke.

This thread went downhill long before horserider made his contribution. And it was taken in that direction by the HFY members that posted.

[Phil Redmond]

Alex, whenever you make contact with an opponents' limb you've created a bridge. Other WC systems have bridging drills other than chi sau. In TWC we have cross arm and parallel arm drills both predetermined and random. We don't just do the standard chi sau. There are only so many things you can do when you make contact. I just can't believe that only one system knows how to deal with a bridge. I'd be willing to make a clip of some of our Kiu drills and I'd like to see how different yours are.
Phil

[duende]

LOL at this "analysis" of Jiu Jitsu.



But somehow you manage to do it anyway. Statements like that above trivialise other arts. There are a wide variety of types and degrees of control used in Jiu Jitsu, and they differ further when you treat it as JJ used in MMA. This sort of sweeping statement with generalisations about things your statements show you know zip about, coupled with hifalutin jargon and neologisms, erode your credibility.



I'm sure the ex-Sifus are an illustrious bunch

Hey Anerlich,

I think your blowing what I wrote out of proportion, because I definitely wasn't trying to trivialize anything. I have way too much respect for ALL versions of WC, other MA's and certainly Jiu Jitsu.

My usage of the phrase "fully committed control" was not trying to pigeon hole Jiu jitsu or any other grappling art, but merely describe one way it which it is different then the grappling techniques found in kiu sau. No doubt there is much much more to the art.

For instance if you grab some one with your wrist... then that arm is committed for the duration of the grab. If you go to the ground, you are committed to the ground. Not dissing anything.. just making an observation.

[duende]

Alex, whenever you make contact with an opponents' limb you've created a bridge. Other WC systems have bridging drills other than chi sau. In TWC we have cross arm and parallel arm drills both predetermined and random. We don't just do the standard chi sau. There are only so many things you can do when you make contact. I just can't believe that only one system knows how to deal with a bridge. I'd be willing to make a clip of some of our Kiu drills and I'd like to see how different yours are.
Phil

No doubt, all WC has bridges and make good use of them. I've met many a skilled Sifu in my day from other WCs. That's not my point however. My point is that I've yet to find another WC system that do it with the same leverage, body mechanics and range priority awareness that I've experienced in HFY.

Best

[horserider]

Ah Kui Sau. When HFY came out there was no talk of Kui Sau not one word. Nothing in Murphy right up for complete wing chun. Nothing at any of the early GRandmaster Gee workshops nothing on any forums or message boards not a peep about Kui Sau lots of other stuff but not that. Then miracle happens Andreas Hoffman does Ohio seminar and teaches about Weng Chun Kui Sau . Then guess what. Hard to believe , HFY starts talking about they have Kui Sau too so this proves we are old from shaolin like Weng Chun story.

Let's see before Andreas no Kui Sau after Andreas Kui Sau. Just another HFY coincidence I am sure

[Chango]

Alex,
your post gave great explination. Some people on here seem to think your intentions are to say HFY has etc.... and this system doesn't. But I think those who read your words with out prejudice can see your point.

If I could I would like to maybe change the tone of this thread a bit. I think we all would benifit from a perspective that we are all brothers in terms of Chinese martial arts and even more so wing chun.

So with that being said we can say that in HFY Chi Kiu and Kiu sau have a very specific meaning in HFY. This understanding in HFY aids in identifying a dealing with very specific time frames. This is not to say that other WC families do not have things that help them to do this. I'm simply saying this is the HFY method.

As a Ving Tsun Museum committee member, I personally have seen and met and trained with many different WC Grand masters and lineage representatives. Of those I have met only one system that shared kiu sau as a method. However they approached kiu sau from a very different perspective and they did not use Chi kiu to address this particular time frame. I personally spend much time appreciating the differences but more so the simularities. I guess this is my nature as I'm a Glass half full type of person LOL!

I think we all must all keep in mind that all lineages and families have something to bring the table here. We must not knit pick so much if we are going to move to a place where we can share the gifts we all have from our Sifu's and ancestors. We all here are train really hard to develope our craft so it should be understood and kept in mind while posting. I think this would bring this thread to a more positive light.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . As a Ving Tsun Museum committee member, I personally have seen and met and trained with many different WC Grand masters and lineage representatives. Of those I have met only one system that shared kiu sau as a method. . . .

The key word here is shared. Without us knowing what Kiu Sau is to HFY. You can't say who has it or not. Just like I can't say what HFY has or doesn't have. Not everything is shared in a seminar. And I'm implying the HFY/TWC controversey. I'm just talking from a martial arts perspective.

[Chango]

Hello Phil,
It's always a pleasure talking with you. I think your point is valid. I personally do not like to say one system has or doesn't have. So let me begin there, The term kiu sau roughly translates to bridging arm. However in many southern Shaolin it generally refers to skills developed to train from the elbow to the wrist. This can be anything from conditioning them or sensitivity etc....

In HFY kiu sau represents a development of such skills but it's approach identifies it as a specific time frame. From my point of view this only stands to reason as in HFY maxium efficiency of time, space, and energy is the goal and signature. The formula allows us to Q check if we are maintaining this signature. So other approaches to kiu sau in other arts should of course reflect their signature.

I'm at work I'm out of time gotta go. sorry about the incomplete thought I'll get back with you later.

Chango