How many times do fighters get KTFO'd in your practices?

[Oso]

Serious question.

Happened to one of mine today. He was wearing boxing head gear, had his mouth guard in and his opponent had vinyl foam foot gear on.

hook kick to the head pretty much dropped him immediately. He was out for 2-3 seconds and way groggy for another 20-30 seconds. after another 1-2 minutes he was speaking clearly and walking fine...cleaning up his gear, etc.

he is experiencing short term memory loss...everything from about 10 minutes before getting ko'd. this is normal. he hasn't puked and his equilibrium seems ok...walked up steps fine and unlocked his own door etc. his girl is with him and will call 911 and then me if anything changes.

We generally only go 'full contact' once a month, the rest of the practices are intended to be moderate contact. today was a hard day but the kick wasn't that hard...just right on the money.

Back to the question, though. What is usual or normal expectation? Do you get ko's in practice regularly? ever?

thanks

[monji112000]

Serious question.

Happened to one of mine today. He was wearing boxing head gear, had his mouth guard in and his opponent had vinyl foam foot gear on.

hook kick to the head pretty much dropped him immediately. He was out for 2-3 seconds and way groggy for another 20-30 seconds. after another 1-2 minutes he was speaking clearly and walking fine...cleaning up his gear, etc.

he is experiencing short term memory loss...everything from about 10 minutes before getting ko'd. this is normal. he hasn't puked and his equilibrium seems ok...walked up steps fine and unlocked his own door etc. his girl is with him and will call 911 and then me if anything changes.

We generally only go 'full contact' once a month, the rest of the practices are intended to be moderate contact. today was a hard day but the kick wasn't that hard...just right on the money.

Back to the question, though. What is usual or normal expectation? Do you get ko's in practice regularly? ever?

thanks

yah it sucks. Normally its a round kick I didn't see. Keep your hands up and expect the kick even if someone doesn't throw it.
(well thats what I keep telling myself)

[MasterKiller]

I've had 2 occur in my classes in the last 3 years. Neither was 'lights out,' but they were concussions.

[Oso]

this was lights out. I've got tape but haven't reviewed with my student yet to see if he is ok with it being broadcast. It's the guy I'm sparring in this clip and the two others with similar titles on my youtube page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u3fIseqNWo




I reveiwed the tape today and it was a big spinning wheel kick; my guy got caught flat...hands weren't down down but they didn't come up from chest level at all. the same guy (a tkd guy that's come in twice now) caught me a month or so ago and came close to knocking me down...he's got solid kicks.

he's ok, I talked to him a bit ago. no headache at all today. still doesn't quite remember it all but does remember the leg coming up.

[Three Harmonies]

Body bruises clear up. Brain bruises are forever. No reason IMO to go past light contact to the head for regular sparring. Gotta' protect the noodle! Too many take that **** for granted. I have had several concussions mostly from hockey, but some from MA training. Not fun. Not cool. Not worth anything I was doing.
Jake

[Oso]

I agree to an extent. That's why I'm looking for some sort of consensus on how often it happens elsewhere. This is the first in about 13 months of san da training.

Like I said, he had on as much protective gear as possible.

You have to go beyond light contact to all targets at least some of the time.

[MasterKiller]

With boxing gloves and headgear you can go past 'light contact' to the head, and it's tough to throw a high kick 'light' anyway. Sh1t happens.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This seems like an interesting subject.

How often are there KTFO's in a pro-fighter's practices? Probably not that often, or else his sparring partner would get fired....LOL. Don't damage the valuable goods.

So why go full-contact to the head with spinning kicks? I like a good strong high kick, but I don't follow through. If I can get it up there past a guard, that's enough info for me. Knocking the opponent down, concussing him, staggering him--that's just the effect. I want to know my cause is solid.

Effects will always vary depending on the opponent. In a competition, I'd follow through. Otherwise, why bother?

[MasterKiller]

It's like saying you shouldn't crank submissions in training. Responsible people crank just enough to get the tap, but sometimes the other guy does something unexpected or tries to fight off the sub a little too hard and hurts himself. You can't mitigate all the possible injuries out of fight training and still train effectively.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's like saying you shouldn't crank submissions in training. Responsible people crank just enough to get the tap, but sometimes the other guy does something unexpected or tries to fight off the sub a little too hard and hurts himself. You can't mitigate all the possible injuries out of fight training and still train effectively.

Exactly. But following through with a high kick isn't necessary. Practice on a bag. A good head kick is just...pointless. You know what it's going to do. It'll do something harmful. So just get it in range and pull back. I'm not about concussing anybody I train with. It just seems pointless. I don't have a problem with full contact punches, but kicks, knees, elbows....it's just crossing the border into the danger zone for your partner. (Again, your sparring partner isn't an opponent in the competitive sense).

But Oso...was this in in-school sparring match, or was it inter-school? If it was inter-school, I wouldn't question the ethic, but if it's an in-school sparring match, it just seems like a waste of brain cells.

[MasterKiller]

Start a new thread about training methods. Don't wookie this one up.

[Oso]

yea, **** happens. not worried about it...this kid wants to fight and he knows it comes with the territory.

but, it did get me thinking about seeing how often it happened in other peoples training.

he basicallly had not side effects as of sunday but he's going on a minimum of two weeks no contact to the head...probably a good time to work on the ground.

[lkfmdc]

I've been teaching a fighting primary program for 12 years now. In the regular group classes, I've never had a guy "go out" but I can think of 2 or 3 concussions. In the fighter training, again over 12 years, I can think of 2 "out cold" and a few hard shots that we had to stop and take a minute. Considering what we do, how hard we train, etc not at all bad

people may not realize this, but a HUGE part of this is conditioning. Well conditioned athletes tend not to get hurt. That is why "weekend warrioring" or LARP'ing is so dangerous

[Oso]

Ross, I can't tell if you're intentionally making a slam or not. I agree with your statement about weekend warriors. I don't consider ourselves that at all since we train 3-5 days a week. I don't consider us pro either. my guy is certainly not as conditioned as any of your guys but he is in good shape and has been progressively conditioning over the last year...to the point that he's lost 40 pounds in that time.

imo, he got caught. the guy kicking wasn't kicking all that hard but it was spinning wheel kick.

i'll have the clip up by the end of the week. i will happily take any constructive criticism.

[WinterPalm]

What is LARP'ing? I've seen it before...forgive my ignorance, I have not yet made it to the innner chamber.

In my experience I've been kicked very, very hard in the head but not put out. This was by my first "teacher" who was, on the whole, not the best. That really hurt and was a roundhouse to the cheek.
I've had bloody noses, swollen eyesockets, cheeks, etc. Guys have been rocked and put down but never out. One fellow was flash knocked out for like 2 seconds last July or August (looping left as the came in and caught it behind the ear...four oz gloves with face cage gear. Not enought padding!)

The point about conditioning is a good one. Same with really training your technique and getting thousands or reps of one-to-one with high kicks, etc.