Again, new videomaterial of Wong Shun Leung

[Dave P]

See this new vid on Youtube... Wong Shun Leung at a seminar. Translations are made by Wang Kiu (another Yip Man student) The 3rd guy is Philipp Bayer. One of WSL's most talented students...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M72H7q2iabM

Even more new vids on these links

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=--wgG_TsHIQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5CCH0hDjDOQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zr74wVBi5rY

[k gledhill]

always good to see WSL

[KPM]

Thanks for sharing the links! Good clips!

[Matrix]

Great clips. Thank you. Very much appreciated.

Bill

[LoneTiger108]

It's always nice to actually see this generation in action and 'talking the talk'. WSL imo was one of the greats.

Thanks David P(eterson?) Your reputation also preceeds you...

[Dave P]

It's Dave van der Poel... I'm a Philipp Bayer student, but I do appreciate Dave Peterson a lot. He's a valuable friend. I Just found the links on other forums and Youtube. It's good to see that people are sharing their video material. Many of us are so grateful. These 1st hand knowledge should not get lost.

[Gurokevin]

Thanks David P(eterson?) Your reputation also preceeds you...

I don't know, but i do not think that "Dave P" is Sifu David Peterson.

[Mr Punch]

I think David Peterson sometimes posts on here under the cunning monicker of... wait for it...

David Peterson...! Could be wrong though.

Nice clips, btw. Don't agree with all of it, but yep, WSL was top, IMO.

[LoneTiger108]

I think David Peterson sometimes posts on here under the cunning monicker of... wait for it...

David Peterson...! Could be wrong though.

Thanks! I thought I'd seen Dave post somewhere else in his full name!

What didn't you agree with in the clip? I thought it was quite good really, with a good piece of advice about follow through striking and chune ging (inch power)

[David Peterson]

Hi Dave, ...thanks for the nod - the respect in returned in full

They are good clips, with the three concerning Cham Kiu being shot circa 1986 in Adelaide, South Australia - sadly the translation offered by the late Jim Fung is very poor and does not do justice to what Sifu is offering. Hopefully more of this material will surface eventually, especially the seminar where my Sihing Philipp is the "target" for Sifu's demonstration. Hadn't realised it was Sisuk Wang Kiu doing the translation - his effort is very good indeed and faithful to what Sifu is discussing in his native Cantonese
DMP

PS: I also wonder what the earlier poster didn't agree with - it's a bit hard to argue with logic, wouldn't you say?

[Mr Punch]

One man's logic is not necessarily another's!

The bit I wasn't so sure about was the bit where he's explaining the reason why ducking/bobbing/weaving don't work against WC. For the purpose of this thread (should it develop into a discussion) I'm going to use bobbing, but it does cover a few similar but subtly different movements.

I know WSL worked with boxing for some time, so I was kind of surprised, and then again it may be as David just said, an inadequacy in the translation. Of course, as WSL said, if you're good enough at following up, striking with different parts of the arm/hand that's out there you should be able to keep the pressure up on someone using such evasive moves. But as anyone who's boxed/sparred/fought a boxer knows, that bobbing is not the big movement that it's sometimes made out to be.

It all comes down to how good your partners are I guess, but a good boxer will slip and duck very very quickly, and just the head is enough... so the problem isn't that the good chunner can't follow up with something, but that he'll have trouble following with anything effective enough to make a difference, bearing he has to deal with redirecting his first failed strike, adjust range, hit a very quickly and erratically moving target on probably different surfaces at short range though with arms likely to be already extended etc.

Elbows are a good answer of course, but also bearing in mind that at the end of most bobs is a power punch, very often from the inside and at angles that chunners don't deal with too often, you have to make sure you're using your elbow arsenal all the time at those odd angles in sparring, to be able to drop them so easily at will and at speed.

I'm not saying WSL couldn't do it, or that the logic is necessarily faulty, but in a fight with all kinds of factors sometimes making a mockery of logic, I think this kind of point stated as irrefutable will lead to serious problems of execution for most of us humble practitioners.

I understand I may have the honour of meeting you and training with you later in the year, David... and though my boxing is a bit rusty and probably wasn't up to that much in the first place, I'm sure we can have a play with it then!

[sanjuro_ronin]

One man's logic is not necessarily another's!

The bit I wasn't so sure about was the bit where he's explaining the reason why ducking/bobbing/weaving don't work against WC. For the purpose of this thread (should it develop into a discussion) I'm going to use bobbing, but it does cover a few similar but subtly different movements.

I know WSL worked with boxing for some time, so I was kind of surprised, and then again it may be as David just said, an inadequacy in the translation. Of course, as WSL said, if you're good enough at following up, striking with different parts of the arm/hand that's out there you should be able to keep the pressure up on someone using such evasive moves. But as anyone who's boxed/sparred/fought a boxer knows, that bobbing is not the big movement that it's sometimes made out to be.

It all comes down to how good your partners are I guess, but a good boxer will slip and duck very very quickly, and just the head is enough... so the problem isn't that the good chunner can't follow up with something, but that he'll have trouble following with anything effective enough to make a difference, bearing he has to deal with redirecting his first failed strike, adjust range, hit a very quickly and erratically moving target on probably different surfaces at short range though with arms likely to be already extended etc.

Elbows are a good answer of course, but also bearing in mind that at the end of most bobs is a power punch, very often from the inside and at angles that chunners don't deal with too often, you have to make sure you're using your elbow arsenal all the time at those odd angles in sparring, to be able to drop them so easily at will and at speed.

I'm not saying WSL couldn't do it, or that the logic is necessarily faulty, but in a fight with all kinds of factors sometimes making a mockery of logic, I think this kind of point stated as irrefutable will lead to serious problems of execution for most of us humble practitioners.

I understand I may have the honour of meeting you and training with you later in the year, David... and though my boxing is a bit rusty and probably wasn't up to that much in the first place, I'm sure we can have a play with it then!

Nice post, beat me to it actually.

[couch]

Just a note on something I personally have a problem with:

I don't think that I could hit from an extended position. I honestly think that the "chaining" of techniques would be forefront in my mind and that the extended hand (after missing) would be on its way back while the other hand is on its way out.

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.

Whadda ya think?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...

a boxers jab works because of what ? hand speed ..over and over jab jab . Vt doesnt bob because it isnt the concept to fight by bobbing and weaving but to attack the guy ...combat attack is one that is going for a finish not a point and back off....if I can use my hand to make your head move and then trap your head witha palm strike and eye gouge you without allowing your head to regain itself and followed up from that .....or you pulled your head back but I kept coming , not backing up after the attempted jab /x...I can kick low to your leg if you slip backwards , a boxer wont do a kick so can rely on subtle head shifts to 'play' the boxing idea.

Due to the speed of the jab / stright line eye mind lag response we dont respond by bobbong but by a strike that sweeps its own center as it responds witha strike of its own and follows up relentlessly, this is the confidence eWSL talks about . If you havent got the confidence to 'steam' the guy then bob and weave ; ) once you can gain entry thats your que to 'go in' and stay with what came , follow through as it tries to regain itself.

Our response in training allow an instinctive motion and attack to just this scenario of a leading jab.
I catch a lot of guys doing a deep stepping jab lead witha left as I step in and cut across their line striking with my own left underneath while doing a rear parry by me ear [ not bobbing] . My intial response hit them as they tried to hit me ...as they try to face me on the side I am attacking , while they try to reposition to counter....just an example not the rule.

Ju jitsu is effective for the very reason it is attacking to gain this entry to finish beyond striking , but with 'intent' to 'commit'...

how many times in a boxing round / fight are boxers pulled apart by the referee ? why ? because they are finished by rules of the game.


the system teaches that if you attack a guy for 9 out of 10 seconds ..he is defending for those 9...even if its a short strike from a miss due to bobbing head , the attack continues , you keep bobbing , I keep attacking, you move I follow , you hit going backwards , I hit going forwards...

just about raising the odds in our favour by attacking and defending in simulateous , tactical , freethinking ways, without rules or applications / magic bullets to stop everything ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...

a boxers jab works because of what ? hand speed ..over and over jab jab . Vt doesnt bob because it isnt the concept to fight by bobbing and weaving but to attack the guy ...combat attack is one that is going for a finish not a point and back off....if I can use my hand to make your head move and then trap your head witha palm strike and eye gouge you without allowing your head to regain itself and followed up from that .....or you pulled your head back but I kept coming , not backing up after the attempted jab /x...I can kick low to your leg if you slip backwards , a boxer wont do a kick so can rely on subtle head shifts to 'play' the boxing idea.

I don't know, I think the bob n weave can work with WC, you can strike while bob n weaving and trap while coming up and attack.
It can flow rather nicely into WC of drilled.