Again, new videomaterial of Wong Shun Leung

[Mr Punch]

Just a note on something I personally have a problem with:

I don't think that I could hit from an extended position. I honestly think that the "chaining" of techniques would be forefront in my mind and that the extended hand (after missing) would be on its way back while the other hand is on its way out.

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.

Whadda ya think?

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

I think you need more practice at same hand follow-ups and LSJC! Not being nasty or anything: it is hard, but of course, it's something you need to practice to make natural.

We used to do a sequence on the wall bag: a biu, punch, fook, lateral elbow. It was all light, and concentrating on flowing the one smoothly into the next with as little drawback as possible. It might help. You can't get any power if there is no pullback, unless of course you are altering your stance. You should always do this exercise concentrating on stance, especially the subtle shifts and especially of the hips. The joy of doing this kind of thing on the wallbag is you should be able to instantly get feedback and understand the weak links in your chain of muscle reaction.

Then you can progress to a heavy bag and god forbid, people!

WSL wasnt saying its bad , he says its good ...'for boxing'...but that if boxers could use any other part of their hands they could strike from the arms positions ...trap head positions that had bobbed down and not allow recovery etc....or strike with 'chop' to the neck etc...
The VT system is geared for attack as the fight not to bob and weave , but to stop the attack by attack , not a sporting bob and weave , back off, come back with a jab/x , back off , came back witha jab/jab/bob weave , back off...

Thanks, I know that's what he was saying, but you haven't answered the points I made about that in my post. Not any judgment, just saying.

Don't get me wrong: it wasn't a major criticism. In general, although my experience in WSL's line is relatively little (just with one, recently two, of my training partners) I like it more than most lines. But still, I'm sure David will concur that WSL always thought dogma was dangerous, and I've heard this boxers' bobbing line repeated by inexperienced (with boxers) chunners in a dangerously dogmatic way too many times.

EDIT: Hot d@mn, Keith, you just wrongfooted me and added three times the previous post! No time to answer just now, but I'll get back here... btw, I tend to agree with Sanjuro that bobbing can fit nicely into wing chun, though when I practice wing chun I try to just practice wing chun and leave it out!

[k gledhill]

what are your points ?

[k gledhill]

I don't know, I think the bob n weave can work with WC, you can strike while bob n weaving and trap while coming up and attack.
It can flow rather nicely into WC of drilled.

you can do anything you want be like water my friend [ to be said with intensity]

You can also learn to shift /cut angles better ; )

[sanjuro_ronin]

you can do anything you want be like water my friend [ to be said with intensity]

You can also learn to shift /cut angles better ; )

Did you just bring JKD into the mix ?

They bob n weave you know....

[couch]

We used to do a sequence on the wall bag: a biu, punch, fook, lateral elbow. It was all light, and concentrating on flowing the one smoothly into the next with as little drawback as possible. It might help. You can't get any power if there is no pullback, unless of course you are altering your stance. You should always do this exercise concentrating on stance, especially the subtle shifts and especially of the hips. The joy of doing this kind of thing on the wallbag is you should be able to instantly get feedback and understand the weak links in your chain of muscle reaction.

Then you can progress to a heavy bag and god forbid, people!

Heavy bag? That's not traditional!!!

Thanks for the heads up on the training regime. Looks cool and I'm going to incorporate it. I understand why it is necessary to relax after each motion comes out (for the ability to flow as you have stated) and I now I do this in a "controlled" training environment. Mostly when it is centre to centre or I'm flanking the guy. But I guess in the situation from the video, I personally would feel more comfortable bringing that hand back to protect my head and flank (depending on the direction the opponent moved - inside vs. outside). Just a feeling I get deep down in the depths of my inexperience. LOL!

TTYS,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

I try not to classify beating a guy up for attacking me by " I did it in this method "

Its like saying I prefered the no bob 'n' weave way, to the bob duck n roll strike 234 way , when i had a fight with a guy this weekend ...during the fight I considered the no bob at all but can kick sideways method with sporadic choke holds followed by humiliating urination , but then changed my mind to the throw in garbage skip after ripping foreskin in 1/2 humiliation method ..on said victim er I mean combatant

Like WSL said , dont be a slave to the system, its about getting a job done , not a show.

[David Peterson]

First and foremost, you are right....Wong Shun Leung did NOT believe in dogma and always taught his students to test everything to discover what what right for them. As noted in at least one post, he WAS originally a very good boxer and had the utmost respect for the art of boxing, having a great deal of knowledge about boxing history, technique and those in the sport. Having said that, he always maintained that boxing was a "game" (as he repeats in the nominated clip) restricted in its effectiveness/potential by its own rules. That said, he was of the opinion that if one was to adequately train and develop the concepts of 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' (the so-called "constant forward springy energy" which Sifu considered the essential difference between good Wing Chun and excellent Wing Chun) and 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' (the skill of delivering power from extended positions - basically, to be able to re-use the same limb for multiple strikes, rather that the more natural "one-two" method), then one could effectively combat an opponent who relies on ducking and weaving because your ability to attack would be continuous and overwhelming compared to your adversary. This approach may not work for everyone, and it won't work at all without the proper foundation and training (lots of people "talk the talk" about Wing Chun concepts but are unable to actually "walk the walk" when it comes to applying them), but it is this method that denotes a specific difference between the WSL Method and other lineages of the Wing Chun tree. I don't for a moment say that the other ideas and opinions expressed in this thread aren't equally applicable or possible, simply that this was Sifu's way, based on his thinking and training, and he made it work, as do many in the WSL Family. No disrespect to anyone else's methods or ideas, just an attempt to clarify the concept for all interested.
DMP

PS: Mr Punch, where is it that we may be meeting this year? I look forward to having the opportunity to swap ideas and experiences

[YungChun]

How much bobbing do we see in MMA as compared to boxing? Why?

Much more subtle when most any weapon/tactic goes no?

Subtle slipping IMO fits in with the system major bobbing doesn't... But--whatever works for ya...

[Liddel]

Maybe just me...but I don't think I'd like to ever leave my arm extended to follow up with after my opponent evaded. I understand what is being said in the vid...and maybe it's just high-level stuff...or personal preference.
Whadda ya think?
Best,
Kenton Sefcik

The way i see it (and use it)...

Its one manifestation of the maxum.. The Shortest distance between two points is a stright line.

If you launch a punch and its evaded, using the horse and force from the elbow to land another attack is ofen the quickest responce. (But not necessarily the best persay.)

Its not that the arm is fully extended, cause after the punch snaps you create an angle at the elbow again but the arm for the most part is still 'extended' (its not bought back to the guard / Bi Jong.)

I tend to use it when my partner bobs below and to the sides of my action using hammer fists, elbows or a Jum attack to a bridge (turning to Lop).

Of course it all depends on what your opponent gives you but you get the picture...

DREW

[Liddel]

How much bobbing do we see in MMA as compared to boxing? Why?

Much more subtle when most any weapon/tactic goes no?

Subtle slipping IMO fits in with the system major bobbing doesn't... But--whatever works for ya...

I see slipping all the time in UFC. Your right its subtle... but exaggerated bobbing is more often seen when watching Rashad Evens or Anderson Silva IMO.
Evens more than Silva.

I think its just personal pref i guess....

DREW

[YungChun]

I see slipping all the time in UFC. Your right its subtle... but exaggerated bobbing is more often seen when watching Rashad Evens or Anderson Silva IMO.
Evens more than Silva.

I think its just personal pref i guess....

DREW

Well I see some boxers using what I would call extreme bobbing, where they'll bend over and put their head virtually under the opponent's waist--I don't see that much in NHB, where there are many more options to attack with..

[sanjuro_ronin]

A slip is basically a head movement where as a Bob n Weave is a whole body movement and the knees should get bent almost a crouch in some cases, it should NOT be a "bend over at the waist" thing which leave you open for uppercuts ( boxing) and knees ( MT).
You would slip a jab, but you would bob n weave a cross or hook, though you can slip those to of course, since the bob n weave requires more body movement and thus, more time, it is typicaly employed off a "commited" strike, not a jab.
There are a few clips on youtube, even a MT clip of the bob n weave in MT.

[NgGung]

[QUOTE=David Peterson;836555]First and foremost, you are right....Wong Shun Leung did NOT believe in dogma and always taught his students to test everything to discover what what right for them. As noted in at least one post, he WAS originally a very good boxer and had the utmost respect for the art of boxing, having a great deal of knowledge about boxing history, technique and those in the sport. Having said that, he always maintained that boxing was a "game" (as he repeats in the nominated clip) restricted in its effectiveness/potential by its own rules. That said, he was of the opinion that if one was to adequately train and develop the concepts of 'Lat Sau Jik Chung' (the so-called "constant forward springy energy" which Sifu considered the essential difference between good Wing Chun and excellent Wing Chun) and 'Cheung Kiu Faat Lik' (the skill of delivering power from extended positions - basically, to be able to re-use the same limb for multiple strikes, rather that the more natural "one-two" method), then one could effectively combat an opponent who relies on ducking and weaving because your ability to attack would be continuous and overwhelming compared to your adversary. This approach may not work for everyone, and it won't work at all without the proper foundation and training (lots of people "talk the talk" about Wing Chun concepts but are unable to actually "walk the walk" when it comes to applying them), but it is this method that denotes a specific difference between the WSL Method and other lineages of the Wing Chun tree.
DMP

I love wc and have respect for master wong but I am confused. Wing Chun practiced safe in the schools yes? But we can know to use dirty on the street! Does everyone thinks Boxers can not do same thing?

You say difference in Master Wong Wing CHun is " walk the walk" I do not understand, Can you explain more please? Do you say you use this method discribed by Master Wong yourself on trained Boxers youself? Or you see master wong use this with your own eye? I understand Biu Tze concept but if I miss and try to strike opponent from where my hand is not to much power if I do not hit him lucky in the neck. Boxer move and train to hit when he drop down or use coming up to hit hard too! Not easy to hit him solid on centerline! I not want to try this on bigger boxer like Kimbo in street!
http://www.flicklife.com/8461020e2ba...ico_Fight.html

[Ernie]

If you look at what WSL is saying and doing as a '' Technique ''' then you missing the point ,,, it's an idea /concept ,,,, striking with nearest weapon , using a position you have already gained ,,,,, not to different then doubling up on the Jab or flicking a light jab then exploding in with footwork with same hand power shot ,,, the mechanics will vary from each situation and the tools will vary might be a kick a knee and elbow a chair a bat what ever ...

now when you use the nearest weapon it obviously is not going to be a huge power shot just a set up ,,, gaining a moment for something better
Vs retracting your hand and inviting something to follow it back and eat the space you just opened ,,,,

Again it's an idea ,, mileage will vary based on the person and situation

as for the Kimbo comment what next ,,,superman ,, the incredible hulk ,, we can play that game of what if's forever

better to be more concerned with what YOU can '' actually do'' then play imaginary games with what other people are doing

[NgGung]

If you look at what WSL is saying and doing as a '' Technique ''' then you missing the point ,,, it's an idea /concept ,,,, striking with nearest weapon , using a position you have already gained ,,,,, not to different then doubling up on the Jab or flicking a light jab then exploding in with footwork with same hand power shot ,,, the mechanics will vary from each situation and the tools will vary might be a kick a knee and elbow a chair a bat what ever ...

now when you use the nearest weapon it obviously is not going to be a huge power shot just a set up ,,, gaining a moment for something better
Vs retracting your hand and inviting something to follow it back and eat the space you just opened ,,,,

Again it's an idea ,, mileage will vary based on the person and situation

as for the Kimbo comment what next ,,,superman ,, the incredible hulk ,, we can play that game of what if's forever

better to be more concerned with what YOU can '' actually do'' then play imaginary games with what other people are doing

Yes, I understand it is concept. Maybe we both miss point? Do this to experience boxer and see what he do to your long bridge double jab! Kimbo has not to do with Superman. He start in streets like CHico and many others he fights. Point is many people who box are not at disadvantage in street because it is sport in ring like is implied! Many test they skills...so to say WC by wong shun leung WC is Walk the walk, then I say how so more then everyone elsedoing wing chun? You bareknuckle test what master wong says in street? Or you take his word at concept and then you are just talk the talk like everyone else?If so, then you do the same