Martial Arts & Religion

[Lucas]

Well, the Hebrews tended to view that law as applicable to themselves but yes the law was applied to others that were "neighbours" too.
Don't ever judge a religion or ideology by what people do that is AGAINST its core teachings.
Where in the verse I quote from Matthew would you get the impression that ANY type of violence or hate against ANYONE is acceptable?

ya i getcha....that part about divorce is crazy. so basically if you get divorced as a woman and EVER meet another person, you've commited adultry? likewise if you marry a divorced woman you are also commiting adultry?


furthermore i must chastise you for making all of us here adulterers by posting those lusty women!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya i getcha....that part about divorce is crazy. so basically if you get divorced as a woman and EVER meet another person, you've commited adultry? likewise if you marry a divorced woman you are also commiting adultry?


furthermore i must chastise you for making all of us here adulterers by posting those lusty women!!!!

Well, you need to understand Jesus' INTENT behind that.
AT the time some law interpreters were allowing a man to divorce a woman for ANY reason whatsoever.
Jesus wanted to make VERY CLEAR the seriousness of marriage and how it was INTENDED to be.
You don't get married "just because", you don't get married with the understanding that if you don't "like it" you can get out.
No, that is NOT how it works, you must be of the correct mind and spirit and understand that it is for life.
So if you don't think you can do that with THAT person, don't get freaking married !
Now, Jesus made it clear that the ONLY justification for divorce was adultery and I think we all can agree that is THE reason, far more than any other.
Of course IF a man was violent with his wife there were penalties for that also and divorce would be acceptable under those terms also.
No one was excpeted to live under a cloud of hate and violence.
The point Jesus was making was NOT so much you can only divorce under such, but how very serious marriage is.

And yes, I am aware that "any man that lusts has committed adultery in his heart".

[David Jamieson]

Eventually it comes down to two things - We say to God Thy will be done or God says to Us thy will be done.

This only applies if you believe there is a god at all.

One cannot say, I believe there is a god and whether you do or not is irrelevant.

The entire conversation is castrated with bias at that point.

That's the thing with a belief. It's a belief. It's not a known. Not even to the believer. Hence faith and matters of faith and articles of faith which are in fact non-factual and non-applicable to anything outside the construct of faith.

If one requires a system external to themselves to find their peace, to make their solace and to come to terms with their heart and minds and if they do that through organized religion and the chosen dogma and doctrine of that religion then that is great!!!

What is important in my eyes is that harm is not carried out upon others and minimized as much as possible where it can be until the pathway to unconditional positive regard for all things (love) is achieved.

We'll get there. Look how far we've come already! Really far!

[sanjuro_ronin]

This only applies if you believe there is a god at all.

One cannot say, I believe there is a god and whether you do or not is irrelevant.

The entire conversation is castrated with bias at that point.

That's the thing with a belief. It's a belief. It's not a known. Not even to the believer. Hence faith and matters of faith and articles of faith which are in fact non-factual and non-applicable to anything outside the construct of faith.

If one requires a system external to themselves to find their peace, to make their solace and to come to terms with their heart and minds and if they do that through organized religion and the chosen dogma and doctrine of that religion then that is great!!!

What is important in my eyes is that harm is not carried out upon others and minimized as much as possible where it can be until the pathway to unconditional positive regard for all things (love) is achieved.

We'll get there. Look how far we've come already! Really far!

Very true.
Evidence is not proof and faith is not evidence.
Being a Christian, to me of course, the path is Christ BUT I openly accept and understand that there are many paths to love.
I can speak of myself and of my views and my experiences and why I believe and so forth, but that doesn't mean anything to anyone other than to me.
In the end, it is ALL a very personal issue and regardless of religion or faith or ideology it always amounts to just that -personal decision.
Of course, that said, one then arrives at the realm of where MY personal decision and yours or his or hers "meet" and what happens there.
And that, as always, is the issue.
In regards to the subject at hand (MA and religion) and the topic in particular ( Christianity and MMA), there are concret notions and core doctrines one must subscribe to call him/herself a Christian and the first is to believe that JC is their Lord and Saviour, BUT after that one is to "imitate" Christ in all we do ( to the best of our ability and to the best of circumstances in the world we live).
Choosing to do violence on another when there is choice NOT to, is not "very christian".

[GeneChing]

Which makes me wonder...who are all you people and what have you done with our regular posters?

[Lucas]

You know, Sanjuro, you're my favorite type of Christian. You 'get it'

[Hebrew Hammer]

All this talk of Christianity is making me hungry...

Well, you need to understand Jesus' INTENT behind that.
AT the time some law interpreters were allowing a man to divorce a woman for ANY reason whatsoever.
Jesus wanted to make VERY CLEAR the seriousness of marriage and how it was INTENDED to be.
You don't get married "just because", you don't get married with the understanding that if you don't "like it" you can get out.
No, that is NOT how it works, you must be of the correct mind and spirit and understand that it is for life.
So if you don't think you can do that with THAT person, don't get freaking married !
Now, Jesus made it clear that the ONLY justification for divorce was adultery and I think we all can agree that is THE reason, far more than any other.
Of course IF a man was violent with his wife there were penalties for that also and divorce would be acceptable under those terms also.
No one was excpeted to live under a cloud of hate and violence.
The point Jesus was making was NOT so much you can only divorce under such, but how very serious marriage is.

And yes, I am aware that "any man that lusts has committed adultery in his heart".

That's a very modern interpretation SJ, you assume most people freely chose their partners out of love, much like we can now...but most marriages were arranged, for tribal, economic and political reasons. There was no Samurai Divorce Court. The power of Rabbis, lawyers, and the Priest hood comes much later.

Well, the Hebrews tended to view that law as applicable to themselves but yes the law was applied to others that were "neighbours" too.
Don't ever judge a religion or ideology by what people do that is AGAINST its core teachings.
Where in the verse I quote from Matthew would you get the impression that ANY type of violence or hate against ANYONE is acceptable?

Careful Grasshopper, you can NEVER and I mean Never group the collective Hebrew view...believe you me, you should have seen the debates over one passage of the Torah in my Judaic studies groups. In fact there is a faction of Jews called the Re-constructionists and all they do is argue and redefine what's God's word was. Violence is very Old Testament....God struck down many a man.

i would think jesus would be fine with it since both men are wanting to fight each other and not basing that around hate or melicious intentions.

Lucas see above, Jesus was Jewish and I can promise you he would have more than just one opinion about this...he would be of several minds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a very modern interpretation SJ, you assume most people freely chose their partners out of love, much like we can now...but most marriages were arranged, for tribal, economic and political reasons. There was no Samurai Divorce Court. The power of Rabbis, lawyers, and the Priest hood comes much later.

Indeed, hence his warning that any man that divorces a woman (outside of adultery) makes her an adulteress AND all the penalties that go with that (stoning for one).
It was a warning NOT only for the couple BUT all those involved, it was a huge sin to cause ANOTHER to sin.
It was also a comment that marriage was NOT suppoose to be the way they were doing it.

Careful Grasshopper, you can NEVER and I mean Never group the collective Hebrew view...believe you me, you should have seen the debates over one passage of the Torah in my Judaic studies groups. In fact there is a faction of Jews called the Re-constructionists and all they do is argue and redefine what's God's word was. Violence is very Old Testament....God struck down many a man.

In Jesus' time there were 4 principle groups: Pharisee, Saudacee, Zelots and Essences ( and I am sure a few more smaller groups too).
And what made them different was their interpretation of the Torah AND how to apply it.
Nothing has really changed.

Lucas see above, Jesus was Jewish and I can promise you he would have more than just one opinion about this...he would be of several minds.

Jesus was Jewish by birth and by choice BUT he was hardly a "typical" Jew and he was VERY clear in regards to certain things.
The use of violence was one.
He most certainly would have frowned upon the use of violence for entertainment AND for sport AND for anything other than self-protection ( and yes there is even some debate as to if he would have advocated violence even for self-protection).

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, Sanjuro, you're my favorite type of Christian. You 'get it'

Thanks, I appreciate that.
When a Christian is a Christian by choice and because they have been humbled by God's love, they tend to not be the overly "militant" type and quite honestly the vast majority are like that.
The extremists as always, get the most press.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its funny, I tend to have more debates with other Christians then I do with people of other religions or atheists.
There is a element of " I am right you are wrong" in every ideology but in a religion like Christianity that makes it clear that we are NOT to judge others it amazes me how judgmental some are.
In a religion that advocates LOVE above all else, it amazes me how unloving some are.
In a religion what warns that we will be very surprised as to who will be saved, it amazes me why people think THEY KNOW who will be and who won't.
Augustine was right, the church is a "hospital for sick people(sinners) not a museum of saints.
In short, people suck !

[David Jamieson]

Which makes me wonder...who are all you people and what have you done with our regular posters?

How soon you forget my good man, we've just spent the better part of the last half year or so weeding out the folks who would spiral a discussion such as this down deep into the depths of wee jokes, shouting and the inevitable, hateful, my god is better than your god remarks.

You now have civil, thoughtful, insightful and meaningful posts happening everywhere and more people of that inclination showing up to participate.

Anyway, I keep my sword sharp, you keep your hammer heavy and it will all be rainbows, lollipops and conversations that are relevant!

I hope....

[Scott R. Brown]

How soon you forget my good man, we've just spent the better part of the last half year or so weeding out the folks who would spiral a discussion such as this down deep into the depths of wee jokes, shouting and the inevitable, hateful, my god is better than your god remarks.

You now have civil, thoughtful, insightful and meaningful posts happening everywhere and more people of that inclination showing up to participate.

Anyway, I keep my sword sharp, you keep your hammer heavy and it will all be rainbows, lollipops and conversations that are relevant!

I hope....

No, what you have now is milk-toast discussions devoid of passionate argument!

[Scott R. Brown]

Its funny, I tend to have more debates with other Christians then I do with people of other religions or atheists.
There is a element of " I am right you are wrong" in every ideology but in a religion like Christianity that makes it clear that we are NOT to judge others it amazes me how judgmental some are.
In a religion that advocates LOVE above all else, it amazes me how unloving some are.
In a religion what warns that we will be very surprised as to who will be saved, it amazes me why people think THEY KNOW who will be and who won't.
Augustine was right, the church is a "hospital for sick people(sinners) not a museum of saints.
In short, people suck !

I think the problem is the terms used. Any time we choose one thing over another we are making a judgment. Making judgments is a necessary part of life. What is meant is do not devalue another's inherent worth as an individual, not "do not make a judgment".

[David Jamieson]

No, what you have now is milk-toast discussions devoid of passionate argument!

I disagree, we still can have passionate arguments, what's missing is miscreants with overblown egos, distraction tactics, trolling, belligerence etc.

Besides, it's "milquetoast", passionate that!

Like how you complained for days on end and sent private requests to have me hunted down and killed etc for being a moderator here.

Which in light of your advise to be non-judgmental is somewhat humourous.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the problem is the terms used. Any time we choose one thing over another we are making a judgment. Making judgments is a necessary part of life. What is meant is do not devalue another's inherent worth as an individual, not "do not make a judgment".

Well put, yes we always make a judgment, we just shouldn't judge OTHERS.
Someone asked me once if I ever judge and I said of course I do.
BUT what I try to do, because that is who I understand what Christ taught, is to judge the SIN but not the sinner ( for lack of a better way of putting it).
yes there are things we can and should judge as wrong and when Jesus said to "not judge" he was NOT referring to the acts that are wrong but to the judgment of PEOPLE ( even more so since no one is qualified to judge anyone else because we all suck).
The adultress episode is perhaps the best illustration of this (whether it happened or not is irrelevant), Jesus judge her sin BUT said to those that were judging HER -let he without sin cast the first stone.
Truly words to live by.