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Thread: for the love of god wtf is wrong with ppl?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceSteveRoy View Post


    tangential?
    Tangerine flavoured genitals
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    Interesting that you felt the need to pre-empt your personal opinionof the "facts" with the "trained historian" statement. Was this to add more credibility to what you say in case people with differing opinions disagree with you?? -seems likely

    The historical jesus project was hardly the bottom line in the debate of the "historical jesus". Just as many researchers disagree with your premise.

    Regardless, you seem to have arrived at a personal conclusion based on what you believe. Better to say such statements as opinions instead of pretending to represent the facts and THE truth.

    Ultimately, everyone chooses what they want to believe. Don't spread your propaganda as a facade for truth.
    Yes, I am a trained historian. I taught history at the college level. That means I was trained to evaluate both sources and arguments of a historical nature.

    "Propaganda"? Really? Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish? Or that his brother James didn't lead the first Church? Since Paul is the earliest written record we have of the Church, you'd have to explain away Paul's own accounts of James before you could argue otherwise.

    Are you saying Jesus message wasn't Jewish, in a Jewish context? He was talking about the temple, G'd, the prophecies of all nations coming under it, etc... His church claims he was the messiah, which was a Jewish concept. Outside of Judaism it has no other meaning.

    Are you arguing that Paul was a direct disciple? He never said he was. His own words are testement to the fact he was converted after the crucifixtion. Furthremore, his own words testify to his disagreemetns with James and the Israel Church. Which, by the way, all centerd on interpretation of JEWISH law

    Sort of sounds like facts to me? Why not tell us what you think and WHY you think that, then rather than getting your underwear in a knot we could discuss it
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  3. #48
    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
    called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
    which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    And declared to be the Son of God with power,
    according to the spirit of holiness,
    by the resurrection from the dead:

    By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
    for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


    Paul, His story


    And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
    And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the *****s.
    And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Saul/Paul
    Last edited by the Preacher; 01-24-2008 at 02:20 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Preacher View Post
    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
    called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
    which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    And declared to be the Son of God with power,
    according to the spirit of holiness,
    by the resurrection from the dead:

    By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
    for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


    Paul, His story
    Paul has a great name, matter of fact, everyone named Paul is Uber_cool !!
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Paul has a great name, matter of fact, everyone named Paul is Uber_cool !!
    ....



    .

  6. #51
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    Actually, I dont wear underwear...

    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Yes, I am a trained historian. I taught history at the college level. That means I was trained to evaluate both sources and arguments of a historical nature.

    "Propaganda"? Really? Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish? Or that his brother James didn't lead the first Church? Since Paul is the earliest written record we have of the Church, you'd have to explain away Paul's own accounts of James before you could argue otherwise.

    Are you saying Jesus message wasn't Jewish, in a Jewish context? He was talking about the temple, G'd, the prophecies of all nations coming under it, etc... His church claims he was the messiah, which was a Jewish concept. Outside of Judaism it has no other meaning.

    Are you arguing that Paul was a direct disciple? He never said he was. His own words are testement to the fact he was converted after the crucifixtion. Furthremore, his own words testify to his disagreemetns with James and the Israel Church. Which, by the way, all centerd on interpretation of JEWISH law

    Sort of sounds like facts to me? Why not tell us what you think and WHY you think that, then rather than getting your underwear in a knot we could discuss it
    Of course,

    You said, "how a religion started by a Jew, practiced by Jews, with a distinctly Jewish context and distinctly Jewish message gave birth to one of the most anti-semitic movements in the world?"
    First off, excellent intermingling of factual and normative statements.
    Was Jesus Jewish? Yes.
    Were his first followers Jewish? Mostly.
    Was the message Jewish? Yes and No.
    My contention is this: Jesus' message was first to the jew, then to the gentile. Jewish prophets foretold this. But then you launch into a wild accusation of "one of the most anti-semitic movements of the world" It is obvious that you have an extreme bias here so why dont you mention that instead? Gross generalizations are reminiscent of propaganda, hence my labeling so...

    And what of Mary's role in the early church? How is that even important to the central message of Jesus?? Ironically, those "series of misogynistic Church leaders who exhibited some strange tendencies" are part of your heritage as a self proclaimed "half jewish/half catholic"....whatever that means.

    I could go on, but Im tired of typing.

    -Blake
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post

    part of your heritage as a self proclaimed "half jewish/half catholic"....whatever that means.
    My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it


    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post

    you launch into a wild accusation of "one of the most anti-semitic movements of the world"
    How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation, which mis-characterized historical fact to lay blame upon an entire population, which instigated, supported and rationalized inquisitions, pograms and holocausts? Are you denying the "blood libel" that was a focus of church doctrine for centuries?

    The Catholic church has some very dirty and bloody hands, which even they acknowldge, ever heard of Vatican 2? Projects such as the historical Jesus mvt and MANY OTHERS are driven precisly by this realization that somewhere along the road, the message got "off track"....

    Similarly, are you going to deny the misogynistic tendencies of past Church leaders? Or their other major "issues"?

    According to Paul, most if not ALL of the apostles were married or had a female companion. For a significant period of Church history priests could and did marry. The justifications for thier attitudes on this subject are shaky at best, ludicrous to many.

    The obsession with virginity? Jerome later tried to insist that Joseph was a virgin as well! Thus, the ridiculous attempts to explain away Jesus brothers and sisters who are so clearly discussed and named in the gospels.....

    Do you really think Joseph and Mary remained virgins their entire life? Who do you think James and the other people whom Paul and gospels name as Jesus' brothers and sisters were?
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  8. #53
    "Ignorance (which has nothing to do with being stupid btw) is the constant obstacle to the advancement of mankind. " -D.Ross

    Really?

    I tend to think that humans know da.mn well what the problems of this world are and how to solve them. I think lack of morality is the true obstacle. Humans are intelligent enough to achieve great things (and we have) but now we should get our overall morality to the same level as our knowledge. I think that would truly make the world better and advance us (I mean we've already been to the fri.gging moon!) But, being good isn't profitable. And collecting knowledge fuels one's ego....I'm smarter than you type of thing. I know this "fact" I know that one, look how cool I can sound at a party, etc.

    Case in point, this discussion. Anyone out there who's trying to be a good person could care less about historical "facts" that always seem to be debatable. The debate will go on and on and get where? The same place it always does. Six pages of debate and of no answers and everyone's tired.

    I don't think Jesus had brothers and sisters....and so what? It's a subject of debate and will continue to be. And if it's true then so what? I don't care if he was a member of the friggin' Brady Bunch. Doesn't get me into heaven. It's about the message itself and my own actions.

    When this thread is over I'll see you all next Easter when it surfaces again.
    Last edited by Anthony; 01-24-2008 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #54
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    If you want to find the 'facts' on this issue, look into the Council of Nycia in 325. Here's just a real quick overview of what happened. After Christ's death, the disciples went out and preached the Word. That is something that everyone pretty much agrees on. I'm not sure what happened during the first 300 years, but by the time Nycea came around, there were various 'versions' of Christianity that preached some very different things. Some groups claimed Christ as Divine, some as human, some claimed he was born as a man but the Christ entered into him at the beginning of the Ministry and left during the middle of the crucifixtion which is why Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, we have you left me behind?". The Paulines believed Christ was both man and God at the same time, which is the belief that survived Nycea.

    I think that Coach Ross has a things for the James versions. He IS a trained Historian, I'm sure he knows the story I'm telliong better than I do. He's telling the truth here, but he's not telling the whole truth. Here's an interesting aside; Some early Christians believed that Christ had another brother, a TWIN brother in fact.

    Here's another interesting fact. The followers of Thomas believed in a spiritual resurrection, while the followers of Paul believed in a physical as well as spiritual resurrection. Many believed the story of the Doubting Thomas was in fact a political slam by the Paulines.

    Oh, back to the story. Anyway, the followers of Paul were the dominant political sect in Rom during the 300's. In the end, they used their power and their numbers to ensure that THEIR beliefs regarding Christianity were to survive and everything else was declared Heresy. The result of Nycia is what became the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. From the Catholic Church sprung the Protestant religions, until we have the face of Christianity today. All we have ever seen is the result of Pauline doctrine.
    I have no idea what WD is talking about.--Royal Dragon

  10. #55
    There are a lot of traditions and variations, etc

    The key, if you want to be taken seriously, is to apply the same standards all historical research is subjected to to the sources. IE a lot of the variants can not be dated back close enough to Jesus' actual time on earth.

    This is why Paul's writings are so important, and of course the 4 gospels. Paul was as close as we can get. The 4 gospels are within 60 years or so, and some thin they are all based on an older source (s) closer than that

    To what end would Paul create brothers and sisters? James is mentioned as a brother of Jesus by Paul in Epistle to the Galatians 1:19.

    The gospels name even more brothers and sisters! James as well as Jude, Simon and Joses are mentioned in Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3, and siblings are referred to in Acts 12:17

    Then of course there is an independent historical source. According to a passage in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"

    All these sources pre-date Nycia... this leaves obvious questsions
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it

    how can you be half and half



    then could you explain this quote for me?
    Rom 11

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.






    with all that education......... do you actually believe in anything?
    ......... in any "one" thing.




    Rev 3-16
    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    There are a lot of traditions and variations, etc

    The key, if you want to be taken seriously, is to apply the same standards all historical research is subjected to to the sources. IE a lot of the variants can not be dated back close enough to Jesus' actual time on earth.

    This is why Paul's writings are so important, and of course the 4 gospels. Paul was as close as we can get. The 4 gospels are within 60 years or so, and some thin they are all based on an older source (s) closer than that

    To what end would Paul create brothers and sisters? James is mentioned as a brother of Jesus by Paul in Epistle to the Galatians 1:19.

    The gospels name even more brothers and sisters! James as well as Jude, Simon and Joses are mentioned in Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3, and siblings are referred to in Acts 12:17

    Then of course there is an independent historical source. According to a passage in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"

    All these sources pre-date Nycia... this leaves obvious questsions
    Some say that brother could have been use din the hebrew context of "cousin".
    I don't think that is the case, but it could be argued so.
    Personally I would like to think that Mary and Joe got jiggy with it and had a bunch of kids, I mean, why wouldn't they?
    As for the diferent traditions, such is the "curse" of interpretation.
    Look at infant baptisim, some say it stared with Paul ( and whole households were baptized), some say it was the "equivelent" of the jewish cirumsission, while others are adamant that only adults should be baptized.

    Personally I like variety, spice of life and all that, and in my "clan" we have Jews, RC, JW, Muslims, Protestant and Me, the "reform-christian-protestant-islamic-jew with agnostic tendencies".

    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic, pretty simple really, that makes me half and half... you don't even need a college degree to understand it




    How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation, which mis-characterized historical fact to lay blame upon an entire population, which instigated, supported and rationalized inquisitions, pograms and holocausts? Are you denying the "blood libel" that was a focus of church doctrine for centuries?

    The Catholic church has some very dirty and bloody hands, which even they acknowldge, ever heard of Vatican 2? Projects such as the historical Jesus mvt and MANY OTHERS are driven precisly by this realization that somewhere along the road, the message got "off track"....

    Similarly, are you going to deny the misogynistic tendencies of past Church leaders? Or their other major "issues"?

    According to Paul, most if not ALL of the apostles were married or had a female companion. For a significant period of Church history priests could and did marry. The justifications for thier attitudes on this subject are shaky at best, ludicrous to many.

    The obsession with virginity? Jerome later tried to insist that Joseph was a virgin as well! Thus, the ridiculous attempts to explain away Jesus brothers and sisters who are so clearly discussed and named in the gospels.....

    Do you really think Joseph and Mary remained virgins their entire life? Who do you think James and the other people whom Paul and gospels name as Jesus' brothers and sisters were?
    Actually Mr Ross, I am impressed with your retort. You do seem well researched on this subject, and are actually posting interesting points. However, My main contention is in how you in passing represented your opinions ( on the evil on the catholic church?) as fact in a grossly over-generalized manner.

    "How else would you characterize an organization that teaches people to hate based solely upon religious affiliation"

    -Im sorry are you talking about Islam??? This is NOT a part of Christianity. It MAY have been a part of Catholicism in the past. However, DONT equate catholicism with Christianity. This is akin to mistaking the signpost for That which is signposted (OR as Bruce Lee^TM so eloquently said mistaking the pointing finger with the heavenly glory of the moon...)

    "My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic"

    -This is funny but I am afraid you are confused. If your father was of Jewish heritage and your mother catholic (which is NOT heritage, but an organized religion) thats makes you Jewish not half/half. Or are you saying you are a Messianic Jew (which are Jewish descendants beleiving Jesus is the Messiah)

    Sooo, let me clarify my position. I am discussing and debating (?) with you from a Christian viewpoint, NOT a Catholic viewpoint.

    Take Care

    -Blake
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Preacher View Post
    how can you be half and half



    then could you explain this quote for me?
    Rom 11

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.






    with all that education......... do you actually believe in anything?
    ......... in any "one" thing.




    Rev 3-16
    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    Excellent point preacher,

    It is said, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up"

    Too much knowledge is only intellectual masturb*tion.

    So, Mr Ross, are you a believer or an intellectual masturb*ter??
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post

    My main contention is in how you in passing represented your opinions ( on the evil on the catholic church?) as fact in a grossly over-generalized manner.

    -Im sorry are you talking about Islam??? This is NOT a part of Christianity. It MAY have been a part of Catholicism in the past. However, DONT equate catholicism with Christianity.
    The original discussion was how the message of Jesus has gotten "off track". As unpopular as this discussion is among protestants of all variants, all protestants trace their faith in a straight line THROUGH the Catholic church back to Jesus.

    IE, regardless of the protestant variant (and of course there are many), they are all "filtered" if you will through 1000 years of Catholic Church history, theology, development and controversy.

    Furthermore, the "sins" (if you'll pardon the pun) of the Catholic Church are also very present in protestant lines. Martin Luther was an infamous anti-semite. ETC

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post

    -This is funny but I am afraid you are confused. If your father was of Jewish heritage and your mother catholic (which is NOT heritage, but an organized religion) thats makes you Jewish not half/half. Or are you saying you are a Messianic Jew (which are Jewish descendants beleiving Jesus is the Messiah)
    Unfortunately, you are the confused one Or just not up on the history of Rabbinic law.

    Through much of the first century CE, Jews understood that the father's religion was the deciding factor. However, about half way through the first century CE (actually, some time after the burning of the temple in 70) Rabbinic law decided the Mother was the determining factor. The relevant text is in the Mishinah, which is Rabbinic law, not actually in the 5 books, which of course begs the question of saying is it truly correct? Since it is not spelled out in the actual old testement, it is a matter of interpretation.

    As for "Jewish Christians", ALL of Jesus' followers before Paul were "Jewish Christians" and many Jewish sects of Christians continued to exist well into the Third Century CE. Only the "unification" of the Catholic Church (from which all protestant lines thus descended) after Nycia resulted in their beliefs being labelled "heresy". Another one of the not so gentle moments in CHRISITIAN history

    Finally, even if you want to discuss this as a Christian as opposed to a Catholic (completely understandable), you'd still have a good discussion on how the Protestant message(s) have deviated in many respects from the original Jewish context that Jesus preached within
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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