China MMA

[Lucas]

mma gets beat up by mma over and over again too if people stop, think for themselves, and start actually looking for the good examples, (instead of only looking for the bad ones and acting like thats all there is) which have been pointed to time and again, people can see that chinese martial arts is used in the ring, and used to win fights. ive pointed out a shhheeeet ton of fighters over the years here who have and do use cma to win fights...im tired of thinking for other people.

heres an idea. MMA fighters are worthless in sanshou. show me one mma guy that is a sanshou champion. of course my statement is false, but prove me wrong. MMA is also worthless in olympic tae kwon do. lol

its like this, you have a UFC fighter who they themselves say 'hey i do shaolin kung fu, i use this in the ring and i train it for my fights' it gets tossed to the side. and everyone literally forgets immediately and cannot recall who this is. is he the champ? no. but did he fight in recent ufc? yes. are you in ufc fighting? no? is he more accomplished than you in mma with his shaolin? yes. and so what if there are not a ton of UFC cma fighters. there are guys using cma in many fighting formats across the world.

Also, 'kungfu useless in a real fight' ? really? there are tons of examples of people using kung fu to defend themselves in real life. articles upon articles in the news for years and years....people just choose to be ignorant. always have and always will.

[Kellen Bassette]

Would that be be Roy "Big Country" Nelson?

[Lucas]

shut up, dont talk to me!!!

oh wait just kidding. ya. of course im not saying that he is a shaolin fighter. or even that kungfu is a majorty share holder in his fighting style... definately being a bjj black belt is going to be a dominant aspect of a mma fighter in many respects. but just the simple fact that a person can with their own mouth say , 'i started with kung fu and yes i still use it' then directly after that other people dismiss that for him....well...thats just a prime example of the way cma is treated by the mma community in general.

[Kellen Bassette]

Yeah...I never brought him up, since I knew it would go straight to his BJJ black belt, but since he's been winning with KO's....he did say himself he trains Kung Fu everyday.

Everyone in mma crosstrains...but a lot, if not most fighters, have a core base. I think when a fighter tells you what his base is you have to take it seriously. Who knows yourself better than you?

[Lucas]

Well usually when talking with naysayers and you supply undesputed proof, the proof supplied is pretty much always ignored. I personally have done so many times over the years here and that outcome is almost always the case. The times its not, straw man arguments are made that precisely mirror your comments.

Its OK though, I take my vengeance in the form of knowing the individuals I'm debating with at that time choose to be blissfully ignorant. To me, letting my adversaries maintain a level of self imposed stupidity is the best revenge, and furthermore, this mindset is a clear indication those individuals are similarly lacking in other areas of their life. I personally take a sadistic pleasure in that knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

mma gets beat up by mma over and over again too if people stop, think for themselves, and start actually looking for the good examples, (instead of only looking for the bad ones and acting like thats all there is) which have been pointed to time and again, people can see that chinese martial arts is used in the ring, and used to win fights. ive pointed out a shhheeeet ton of fighters over the years here who have and do use cma to win fights...im tired of thinking for other people.

heres an idea. MMA fighters are worthless in sanshou. show me one mma guy that is a sanshou champion. of course my statement is false, but prove me wrong. MMA is also worthless in olympic tae kwon do. lol

its like this, you have a UFC fighter who they themselves say 'hey i do shaolin kung fu, i use this in the ring and i train it for my fights' it gets tossed to the side. and everyone literally forgets immediately and cannot recall who this is. is he the champ? no. but did he fight in recent ufc? yes. are you in ufc fighting? no? is he more accomplished than you in mma with his shaolin? yes. and so what if there are not a ton of UFC cma fighters. there are guys using cma in many fighting formats across the world.

Also, 'kungfu useless in a real fight' ? really? there are tons of examples of people using kung fu to defend themselves in real life. articles upon articles in the news for years and years....people just choose to be ignorant. always have and always will.

I think you are missing the point dude.
Just like here were the new generation is being bombarded with videos and TV shows of MMA being the ultimate, it is happening all over the world also.
What the next and new generation is seeing is the high practically of MMA.
They are NOT seeing anything of the sort in regards to TCMA.
Guys join a MMA gym and in a few months they are beating they buddies, even those that have had years of TMA experience, I know because I have seen it and hear it.
I am sure the case is the same in China and the rest of the world.

In short, MMA is being shown to be THE MA and TMA are being shown to be "old", "antiquated" and worse, "obsolete".

[Kellen Bassette]

In short, MMA is being shown to be THE MA and TMA are being shown to be "old", "antiquated" and worse, "obsolete".

I feel like we are seeing more traditional guys fighting, (and winning) nowadays, though. If you spar hard, condition and drill it with a partner, (traditional training), the traditional arts will work for you. If not they won't. Basically everyone here who fights agrees with that, and probably a bunch who don't fight.

I'm optimistic that mma will be good for tma in the end. If it forces schools to go back to the root of martial arts, being able to fight for real, then maybe it will save tma from itself.

I think we are going to see more and more fighters from traditional backgrounds and I won't be sad at all if the LARPing schools go down; and those that train for real survive. I may be crazy, but I think eventually there will be a well understood distinction between combat oriented schools and those that just babysit kids and do dress-up exercise. Those schools won't be able to pass themselves off as "teaching combat" anymore...at least in the future I envision.

[Lucas]

Oh don't get me wrong. I agree that mma is raising the bar. Most tma have become stagnant, but at the same time the trend has caused people to reevaluate their arts, and you are starting to see the adjustments being made. I do not agree that tma is obsolete however. The traditions simply need updating. With the right intention and goals, people have proven their arts can hold. All styles? No. Do you need to modify your art, and adapt to the requirements? Yes. But we all know THAT is traditional. Most tma are not following the tradition of combat, but rather that of culture, and repetition, which is the primary source of the stagnation.

Look at the Gracie family as a perfect example. Here was an art that had so much promise, yet was stuck in the past. The art was modified, re worked. The work was put in to bring the art into the modern era, and the art evolved into gjj and bjj. Its still a tma. This can be done to most fighting styles. There just needs to be the drive and the work needs to be done. Sanda hs proven to be an effective vehicle in modernizing virtually any style of cma. Modernizing and adapting your traditions to the current need won't change the essence.

I do agree and understand that the vast majority of people are just not willing to change. But I really don't think that makes traditional arts worthless

[Kellen Bassette]

I agree 100% with Lucas...I believe anyone in TMA who is involved in fighting knows this; and anyone who thinks otherwise probably doesn't fight or spar hard.

[Lucas]

sanjuro, i know, knows all too well exactly what we're saying. he's a smart fighter and has a long history in traditional arts so there is no way he couldnt. i know hes making a point about the relation of traditional arts with the public at large. mma is what the trend setter is, and its the method attracting the majority. I feel that cma in general is getting to the party late, and unfortunately has some serious cultural baggage it needs to shake off. but in defense of cma, the majority of guys you talk to you go 'hey, what do you think about sanda/sanshou?' the response is usually; 'san wha?'

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro, i know, knows all too well exactly what we're saying. he's a smart fighter and has a long history in traditional arts so there is no way he couldnt. i know hes making a point about the relation of traditional arts with the public at large. mma is what the trend setter is, and its the method attracting the majority. I feel that cma in general is getting to the party late, and unfortunately has some serious cultural baggage it needs to shake off. but in defense of cma, the majority of guys you talk to you go 'hey, what do you think about sanda/sanshou?' the response is usually; 'san wha?'

Quite correct.
Those of us that have had the good fortune to be exposed to PRACTICAL TMA KNOW there is "nothing new" under the sun.
The fact is, however, the the next generation is being exposed to only one type of MA that is effective - Sport combat and principally MMA.

[pateticorecords]

The problem with the TMA has been complacency. If you do not adapt you become extinct. I am not saying you should abandon traditional training; you should be incorporating and studying other fighting arts to better understand your opponent. I teach and practice MMA but from a TMA point of view.

I have experienced firsthand Traditional Martial Artists that cannot fight whatsoever, their forms look great but they have no idea how to fight. On the other hand, I have also had MMA fighters in the area come and test themselves out against what we do and they have failed miserably.

The average MMA practitioner is not remotely close to the elite that make it to the pros. Their tactics are predictable so with the right training there is no reason why you cannot defeat them in their own game but once again you have to cross train, learn to grapple, and learn to really generate power with your strikes.

I also help coach the local high school wrestling team (many of the varsity team have gone to states and several who are now wrestling at the collegiate level), when I show them throws, takedowns, and wrestling moves from a TMA perspective they get lost and can’t counter. So I teach them these moves, through live drilling, and they have been become unpredictable against their opponents. They are undefeated this season and they have their central league championship.


Here is a recent interview I did with Truwaza Martial Arts Times were I discuss a lot of this
http://truwazama.weebly.com/sifu-tom-lugo.html

[Kellen Bassette]

I also help coach the local high school wrestling team (many of the varsity team have gone to states and several who are now wrestling at the collegiate level), when I show them throws, takedowns, and wrestling moves from a TMA perspective they get lost and can’t counter. So I teach them these moves, through live drilling, and they have been become unpredictable against their opponents. They are undefeated this season and they have their central league championship.

Congrats on that. I think the grappling of TCMA is a huge aspect of the art and is often under trained/utilized. People tend to think of KF only as a striking art, but it's really a striking/grappling art. Of course exposing yourself to the different tactis of wrestling, BJJ. Judo, MT clinch ect...just make you better...

[Kellen Bassette]

[QUOTE=Lucas;1210475]sanjuro, i know, knows all too well exactly what we're saying. /QUOTE]

Yeah, I read his posts...he knows what's up....seems like were always preaching to the choir, but I keep reiterating for the benefit of thousands of people outside the forum that may come across our comments.

Sometimes it's easy to forget it's not just the same handful of forum members that see our rants and arguments. I was aware of this forum and many of its' members for years before I began participating.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1210544]

sanjuro, i know, knows all too well exactly what we're saying. /QUOTE]

Yeah, I read his posts...he knows what's up....seems like were always preaching to the choir, but I keep reiterating for the benefit of thousands of people outside the forum that may come across our comments.

Sometimes it's easy to forget it's not just the same handful of forum members that see our rants and arguments. I was aware of this forum and many of its' members for years before I began participating.

I think that our posts CAN be seen by so many is why it is important to continue to "preach to the choir" so as to make it clear to those reading that there is a difference between real TMA and what is commonly passed of as such.
Not every has the benefit of decades of training, training in different parts of the world, having seen and used TMA in the ring AND the "street" and because of that it is important to pass on the understanding to others.
Better for someone to learn the easy way with common sense than the hard way by getting their ass beat.