The Wing Chun stance

[B-Rad]

I tried a Wing Chun class last year, and found the stance very uncomfortable. Turning both knees in so much was quite a bit painful (I do have past knee problems, so that might be part of it), and the manner in which the pelvis was tucked to the point of created a backward slant (rather than leaning forward or keeping a straight line from head to floor) seemed extremely impractical not to mention uncomfortable. Is it beneficial in ways you don't notice at first? What's the reasoning behind it? Other than that, I like the system, and was thinking about giving it a second shot once I can get my knees a bit stronger.

To be more specific about the training, the teacher is of Moy Yat lineage, and he said he's not yet a "sifu" rank (basically he's teaching at a local community center, but is technically under the supervision of one of Moy Yat's disciples). Was told in the stance that the knees should be close enough together to hold one of those fat striking pads between them... but I just can't do that

[reneritchie]

If something is uncomfortable, it may just require effort (training over time) to improve. If something is painful, it might be better to find a less-painful way of doing things.

There are many different methods taught to implement the Wing Chun Kuen approach to fighting. For example, I keep my spine straight most of the time, not leaning one way or 'tother. Others keep their feet parallel rather than inwardly rotated.

One of WCK's great strengths is that it's core is so dang good, if you really want to train it, you can find an approach that suits both your physical abilities and your personal tastes.

[LoneTiger108]

...Turning both knees in so much was quite a bit painful (I do have past knee problems, so that might be part of it)

Generally, the Sifu would recognize your pains at this early stage and 'ease you in' more gently. I've also had may fair share of knee issues but I've only found that they have got stronger with Wing Chun practise.

Try not to be put off by one family or interpretation. Look around and research other schools and possibly mention the issue at the beginning to save wasting any time.

Personally if a Sifu is not willing to adjust teaching to aid your personal growth and development, they may not be worth spending your time and money on...

[sihing]

Hey B-Rad,

In most WC lineages, not all, the feet are angled in approx.45deg, while in the neutral (YJKYMA) stance. In WSL lineage, at least the people I'm learning from, each foot represents the back foot of the forward stance (e.g. if in right hand forward lead, the left foot of the neutral stance is represented here as the rear foot). Now if your foot is pointed away from center, or out, then the alignment of your facing is messed up and the structure of your lower body in relation to your upper body is broken. Facing is one of the things taught first, as it is unatural for most to face square on like we do while fighting.

The knee's IMO should not be in a close as the instructor told you. For me, when I rotate my feet in, ala pigeon toed stance, that act itself brings my knees in enough naturally, with the heels approx. shoulder width apart. To pinch them in more, so that you can hold a striking pad btwn them is incorrect, as that would put your weight distribution off balance, and make your stance way to narrow. Also, the spine is straight, not leaning back or forward. You strive for perfection with this while in practice, especially during forms work like in Siu Nim Tao or Chum Kiu, because when the 5hit hits the fan, nothing works perfect. If you practice it leaning back, your already off balance, what do you think your reflex will be when your fighting. Think of it this way, you want to have stability in your stance, enough to absorb some force thru it, using the ground as support. You start this process standing still, then adding movement/footwork, so that you have both stability and mobility while fighting.

I agree with Rene, if something is uncomfortable (mostly everything is regarding WC during the beginning stages of learning), then more practice is needed. If it is downright painful, then you adapt it to whatever you are capable of doing without the pain.

Just my loonies worth, good luck to you in your future training

James

[reneritchie]

BTW - **Always** make sure your knee is pointed in the same direction as your foot. Whether your toes face front, in, or out, the knee needs to be in the same exact direction or pain and physical therapy will follow.

(This is common sense, from injury prevention, which means it's often ignored).

[sihing]

BTW - **Always** make sure your knee is pointed in the same direction as your foot. Whether your toes face front, in, or out, the knee needs to be in the same exact direction or pain and physical therapy will follow.

(This is common sense, from injury prevention, which means it's often ignored).

I learned that lesson when learning how to pivot as Sifu Lam's. Even though he has a great cement ground, with a little bit of residue on there to make it a perfect environment to learn (meaning there is little friction with the ground to impede the process), I still twisted from the hip with the knee following but the foot staying behind a bit. Nothing serious but I felt that twist in the knee for a couple of days after words.

James

[Wu Wei Wu]

In David Peterson's DVD on the first form he states that the stance should be made 'personal' in that what fits you may not necessarily be the right fit for someone else. I think this is a good way to view it.

The function of the stance is far more important than the look. And, to suggest that the knees should be close enough to hold a pad is pointless.

[sihing]

In David Peterson's DVD on the first form he states that the stance should be made 'personal' in that what fits you may not necessarily be the right fit for someone else. I think this is a good way to view it.

The function of the stance is far more important than the look. And, to suggest that the knees should be close enough to hold a pad is pointless.

I think eventually this is what happens, and I think this process is prevelant throughout the whole system. If you look at Wing Chun as a training method it fits right in, as we are all individuals with different abilities and attributes, you have to tailor make the system to who you are when you use it for real. In training it should be strict, especially in the beginning, later on as your skill and wisdom with it increases you make it your own

James

[Mr Punch]

If something is uncomfortable, it may just require effort (training over time) to improve. If something is painful, it might be better to find a less-painful way of doing things.

This is correct and essential to remember. It's for you to learn the difference between pain and discomfort. Unfortunately this can take a while too!

Generally, the Sifu would recognize your pains at this early stage and 'ease you in' more gently. I've also had may fair share of knee issues but I've only found that they have got stronger with Wing Chun practise.

This is correct and essential to remember. Don't let the sifu tell you that it's not hurting if it is... he should be telling you how to do it so that although it's uncomfortable at the end you have a healthy burn in your muscles, and no pain in your joint.

In WSL lineage, at least the people I'm learning from, each foot represents the back foot of the forward stance (e.g. if in right hand forward lead, the left foot of the neutral stance is represented here as the rear foot).

This is same as what I was taught in different lines.

Now if your foot is pointed away from center, or out, then the alignment of your facing is messed up and the structure of your lower body in relation to your upper body is broken.

What are you talking about? Are you talking about 'your centre' in this case being a single vertical plane extending from your centreline? When you turn to face it's the front foot that's angled in towards that plane: it's impossible for the back foot to be. Would you mind clarifying for us?

The knee's IMO should not be in a close as the instructor told you.

The 'IMO' is 'correct'.

For me, when I rotate my feet in, ala pigeon toed stance, that act itself brings my knees in enough naturally, with the heels approx. shoulder width apart. To pinch them in more, so that you can hold a striking pad btwn them is incorrect, as that would put your weight distribution off balance, and make your stance way to narrow.

The 'incorrect' is incorrect!

The point about 'naturally' is to train your body into a different concept of natural reactions/positions. That's not to say you have to be a contortionist, but that you are slowly pushing the natural boundaries of your comfort level. IF you practise that way, an extreme knee-in stance can feel perfectly natural after a while. IF you don't practise that way it won't.

It doesn't alter your balance at all, if the other points on this thread are considered, and it doesn't make your stance 'too narrow'! 'Too narrow' for what?! Your heels are in the same place, it's only your knees that are in further, so if you are balanced in your relationship to the centre how would this change your balance? Of course it's too narrow to fight in, but 'train low, fight high', right? In back stance it doesn't matter. In a squared off stance I don't use the SLT stance anyway, but I try to keep the pressures and feeling in my legs the same, so if I've trained low I can feel it more.

Lots of lines train a closer-kneed stance: my first sifu said to practise with an egg between your knees: if your stance is weak you drop it, and if you're putting pressure on the knees in a damaging way, you crush it. He also said he could never be arsed to do so however, and I only tried it a couple of times! A PET bottle is a more moderrn substitute though, top off, filled to the top with water.

Also, the spine is straight, not leaning back or forward.

This is also correct IMO but needs further explanation.

| (body)
| (upper leg)
\ (lower leg)
- (foot)

Looks about right to me, facing left.

Not:

| (body)
/ (upper leg)
\ (lower leg)
- (foot)

Or:

\ (body)
/ (upper leg)
\ (lower leg)
- (foot)

The second (and third) one will

a) cause strain on your knee joint
b) cause your pelvic girdle to be tilted so your arse sticks out and you lose connection and therefore power between upper and lower body
c) cause you to lean back to take the pressure off your knees.

The first one will cause you discomfort in your quads, but none in the joints themselves, and you can feel the hip tucked in a little but not locked out rigidly.

BTW - **Always** make sure your knee is pointed in the same direction as your foot. Whether your toes face front, in, or out, the knee needs to be in the same exact direction or pain and physical therapy will follow.

(This is common sense, from injury prevention, which means it's often ignored).

Yep. Deffo. I had trouble with my knees before I started wing chun, from dodgy aikido practice (aikido SHOULD also not cause knee problems... but many practitioners get them), and when I started chun they got better pronto.

Just a few ideas. Obviously all this is too much for you to take in at once B-rad (you may not think it is but when you come to do the stance you'll be like, ... duh!) but should give you something to look for in the sifu's teaching.

Hopefully some of Moy Yat's studes will post in a bit to give their tuppence.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Just an FYI not all lineages teach the pigeon toed stance, some have the stance wider and foot position more straight ahead. (Sorry I'm too dumb to spell parallel correctly ) Don't want Phil correctly my spelling or grammer if I can help it.

[B-Rad]

Yeah, I noticed that in a Pan Nam WC vcd.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It was definitely pain in the joints rather than the usual comfortablenesses that comes with new types of training (I've done martial arts in some form for the last 15 years, so I'm familiar with good pain and bad pain ). Unfortunately, my work schedule changed immediately after that initial lesson so I wasn't able to go back and discover what kind of adjustments we could make. Went to the doctor recently and found I had some kind of degenerative condition in my knees. Getting better though since I stopped working during the week, and started practicing my taiji again.

[reneritchie]

The thing is this: If you find one tire wears out, you replace it, it wears out again, you replace it again, etc. it may not be the tire but something higher up the chain (alignment, for example).

Some Western medicine tends to treat pain at the site of pain, and if they are cutters, they will just love to cut on you. While this may sometimes be necessary (severe trauma), often you can do specific things to identify the root causes of the problems in the chain and then specifically work on correcting them.

Good physio's, chiro's, etc. (the kind who will identify your problems to you, give you specific progressive exercises to do on your own to help fix them, and adjust you along the way) can give you a new lease on life. (As opposed to those who just want to string you along with session after session of superficial massages/cracks).

And when in doubt, walk, walk, walk. Nature can do marvelous things auto-correcting posture.

[monji112000]

I tried a Wing Chun class last year, and found the stance very uncomfortable. Turning both knees in so much was quite a bit painful (I do have past knee problems, so that might be part of it), and the manner in which the pelvis was tucked to the point of created a backward slant (rather than leaning forward or keeping a straight line from head to floor) seemed extremely impractical not to mention uncomfortable. Is it beneficial in ways you don't notice at first? What's the reasoning behind it? Other than that, I like the system, and was thinking about giving it a second shot once I can get my knees a bit stronger.

To be more specific about the training, the teacher is of Moy Yat lineage, and he said he's not yet a "sifu" rank (basically he's teaching at a local community center, but is technically under the supervision of one of Moy Yat's disciples). Was told in the stance that the knees should be close enough together to hold one of those fat striking pads between them... but I just can't do that

I know nothing about moy yat's WC, but my opinion and what I have found is that the knee pinching is for many reasons. I do not believe this stance is for "fighting".
In fighting, any stance depending on the situation is possible. Someone has mis-informed you do not push your hips in a drastic position. The stance should be natural. The basic concepts are general and should be applied to more realistic stances when sparring and fighting.

I could break down each aspect of this stance, but I'm sure we would not be on the same page. I would look at look at Allan's (orr), I don't use the horse exactly that way, but its for the most part the same structure that I believe is correct.

Knee pain is common, but it should pass if it doesn't you are doing something wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I tried a Wing Chun class last year, and found the stance very uncomfortable. Turning both knees in so much was quite a bit painful (I do have past knee problems, so that might be part of it), and the manner in which the pelvis was tucked to the point of created a backward slant (rather than leaning forward or keeping a straight line from head to floor) seemed extremely impractical not to mention uncomfortable. Is it beneficial in ways you don't notice at first? What's the reasoning behind it? Other than that, I like the system, and was thinking about giving it a second shot once I can get my knees a bit stronger.

To be more specific about the training, the teacher is of Moy Yat lineage, and he said he's not yet a "sifu" rank (basically he's teaching at a local community center, but is technically under the supervision of one of Moy Yat's disciples). Was told in the stance that the knees should be close enough together to hold one of those fat striking pads between them... but I just can't do that

***I WAS ONE of Moy Yat's original students here in the U.S. - training with him from May,1975 - to May, 1983 (he came to New York City from Hong Kong in September, 1973)...and I was never taught to hold the knees that tightly in toward the center.

[k gledhill]

I met a girl who trained with a macclone school that taught her to waddle forward in the stance and block groin kicks by squeezing her knees together...when she showed me and asked me to kick her it was all I could do not to laugh waddle waddle waddle kick me ! waddle waddle