Philosophical thoughts with living animals

[prana]

Fish,

I like no.4 I have heard that Zen masters know exactly when to hit you so that youi suddenly achieve realisation ? Perhaps Scott or Nexus will be able to explain that about Zen...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[TjD]

well the experience of physical pain, gets us to snap out of our wandering thoughts and directly experience the moment, albiet shortly

so in a sense, when your in meditation and your mind is wandering, and the zen master walks by and hits you upside the head with his stick; your momentarily enlightened because your are totally experiencing the moment

we're all enlightened, and we're all in nirvana - we just dont realize this :)

peace
trav

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

[shaolinboxer]

Actually, I think buddhism, chirsitanity, whatever are fine. They all have good principals that can lead to personal developement and greater understading of and towards everyone and everything.

However, I have strong feelings about adhering to any specific doctrine. I understand that buddhism preaches that all of its preaching is meaningless, and I agree with that in a very buddhist sort of way.

Great danger lies waiting for many of those who use religion to enhance their personal realizations, becuase the doctrines of these religions are linked to individuals. Then these individuals become the source of personal relization, which can lead to loss of self and a lot of disappointment.

So, I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary.

[dave the dragon]

a lot of people feel that way about the "flowery language" aspect.I think the thing thats important in religion is to take what you find useful and disregard what you do not . That is what i attempt to do there aspects of buddhism that I dont necessarily agree , this applies to christianity aswell and islam and hiduism etc.I think the flowery language may be a way of people trying to get across the passion they have for the religion that they follow and to some extent you cant really knock them for that it my opinion.

Anyway have good weekend everybody :)

[dave the dragon]

Prana: Thanks for the sites , they are very informative , I am at work now and have printed them off and shall be reading them over the course of the weekend . :D

[Nexus]

An ancient verse describes the Zen method, realization and transmission thus:

"A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters.
Directly pointing to the heart-mind.
Seeing into one's Nature, attaining Buddhahood."

Realization in the Zen idealism is this: Negation. Essentially the only way to come to any realization is to negate what we previously conceived as the truth. Example: You are raised thinking that people of a different color then your own are lesser of a people. One day you come to the Realization: That people are people, no matter what color they are, and should be treated as such without stereotype. What happened here? You negated your previously false "truth" and replaced it with a new one.

I suppose in this way, one could call the path to enlightenment the working through a series of paradigms. That is of course not exactly it, but certainly part of the process.

My explanation of negation is rather weak though but it is spoken of by several regarding Zen as well as even in the Meditations by Descartes. In regards to "negation" this was said by<font color="blue"> (John Steffeny):</font>
"The task of the Zen master is not to teach Self-Being but to convey that it cannot be taught, that no methodology is capable of bringing it about. By forcing the student to look within her/himself, however, for that mode which (though unactualized) has been there all along, the Zen master may be said to be teaching. This teaching which is a non-teaching is Zen's most unique pedagogy. Rarely will a Zen master say what Zen is but will inexorably express what it is not.

Zen, therefore, is a teaching by negation, negating everything that the student supposes Zen to be, hoping that the student will realize that by not being any particular thing, s/he is everything; and that by not being any particular self, s/he is selflessly all selves. Negation, thus, is an affirmation which is not acquired but which happens, which is awakened as naturally as ordinary consciousness, as though it had been there all along".

Any other questions?

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[prana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary. [/quote]

Lyle,

I don't quite understand what is ticking you off. But before you get upset, please know this, my english (and explaining skills) have NEVER been known to be at all good. In fact English is my 5th language (to include dialects).
Sad that you took my words as a cult, it is used in many a Buddhist texts, just sanskrit.
So I hope you can understand that I had never meant to offend you.
But thanks for reminding me that I have alienated some people here when I used such words as "prana" or "Boddhisattvas" etc.

Dave,

Pleasure is all mine!. I have not found better discourses anywhere, even if these discourses are just published on the net instead of in person.
Another great site, is at www.kalachakra.com

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Great danger lies waiting for many of those who use religion to enhance their personal realizations, becuase the doctrines of these religions are linked to individuals. Then these individuals become the source of personal relization, which can lead to loss of self and a lot of disappointment.

So, I find all of the flowery linguistic manipulation on this string to be offensive, not because I think the general principal is necessarily wrong, but becuase the organization and linguistic foundation on which the principals lie are manipulative and unnecessary. [/quote]


Lyle, I've tried hard to understand what you mean by these two paragraphs, but can't. No offense intended - what you are trying to say sounds like it might be interesting. I realise that certain concepts are often difficult to explain within the confines of language.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Lyle,

I don't quite understand what is ticking you off. But before you get upset, please know this, my english (and explaining skills) have NEVER been known to be at all good. In fact English is my 5th language (to include dialects).
Sad that you took my words as a cult, it is used in many a Buddhist texts, just sanskrit.
[/quote]


Prana, I wouldn't worry about your written English skills - they're better than a lot of native English speakers I know!

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

[joedoe]

Glad we got that sorted out. So - who's for a nice steak? :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[harry_the_monk]

OMG...here we go again :rolleyes:

Peace... :D

[Fish of Fury]

ABandit
let's not mince words, there may be more at steak than you realise.your opinion isn't much chop.it's really porkquality.
i'm gonna reVEAL your true motives and there's mutton you can do about it....
....oh, wait.wrong thread,sorry.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"