Wing Chun in The Guard Position

[r4cy]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing himclose to you to avoid getting hit?

[STUDD WILSON]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing him close to you to avoid getting hit?

One it's difficult to punch while on the mat whether you are on top or underneath. The guard is a sucker postition for giving the advantage to the guy on the floor but unless the WC guy had a great handle on groundwork via BJJ or Judo then he would be pretty much at the mercy of the grapplers skills. Grappling on your feet and grappling on the floor are horses of different colors. If you grabbed him close to avoid getting hit then your only hope would be that he would wear out before you and you could take advantage of it.

In the real life scenario, just have one of your buds kick him in the head a few times. That should level the playing field.

[reneritchie]

WCK tends not to chase hands.

If you're being blitzed, you may have to worry about immediate protection, but just like standing, if all you do is engage the hands, eventually the hands will engage your face.

Even if you get good head and arm control, unless you're in a sanctioned MMA match and hoping for a ref to stand you up, control in and of itself won't help much (take the edge off a beating, but you're still stuck there being defensive).

One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

But, gravity will not be your friend, so trying to strike it it out from the guard is probably not a winning strategy.

Another advantage is bridge structure. To escape, you want to disrupt the opponent's base, remove their weight, create space, and then get out of there.

So, my own personal idea based on what I know today, would be to get offensive as quickly as possible to change the opponent's mindset and set up a strong pushing position, get them off balance and their weight off me, get my hips out while maintaining the strong alignment (so they don't just steam roll me back under them), and get to my feet ready to shoot or hit them (anything offensive) immediately.

I've only dabbled at this kind of stuff, though, so doubtless Alan, anerlich, ultimatewingchun and some others can give more practical assessments.

[reneritchie]

LOL, the classic problem with BJJ terminology. Is "in the guard" when you have your back to the floor and the other person is in between your legs, or is "in the guard" when you're kneeling or standing in between someone else's legs?

I thought the poster meant when we're using the guard position and someone else is attacking us from on top, between our legs.

STUDD took it the other way.

BTW, STUDD, I no longer use either the knee ram or the elbow pressure point as I've found them unreliable against people with good angling, high pain tolerance, and/or high-adrenalin situations. Some people can just suck that kind of stuff up and keep the guard closed, and I prefer high percentage. So, nowadays I try to stick to pure leverage (there's no sucking up body weight), or trickery

[STUDD WILSON]

LOL, the classic problem with BJJ terminology. Is "in the guard" when you have your back to the floor and the other person is in between your legs, or is "in the guard" when you're kneeling or standing in between someone else's legs?

I thought the poster meant when we're using the guard position and someone else is attacking us from on top, between our legs.

STUDD took it the other way.

BTW, STUDD, I no longer use either the knee ram or the elbow pressure point as I've found them unreliable against people with good angling, high pain tolerance, and/or high-adrenalin situations. Some people can just suck that kind of stuff up and keep the guard closed, and I prefer high percentage. So, nowadays I try to stick to pure leverage (there's no sucking up body weight), or trickery

I've never had that problem but I have extremely bony elbows. My old grappling buddy could withstand about anyone else but me in that regard. Not saying that I wouldn't meet anyone in the future that might be able to though. Against a good enough opponent nothing will work. But that is for the ring anyway as if anyone is dumb enough to try and sucker anyone into the gaurd in a real streetfight then he deserves whats coming to him (my buddy stomping his butt).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've never had that problem but I have extremely bony elbows. My old grappling buddy could withstand about anyone else but me in that regard. Not saying that I wouldn't meet anyone in the future that might be able to though. Against a good enough opponent nothing will work. But that is for the ring anyway as if anyone is dumb enough to try and sucker anyone into the gaurd in a real streetfight then he deserves whats coming to him (my buddy stomping his butt).

The guard position is quite old, its even in Chin Na.
Someone that knows the guard and how to use it can take out almost anyone from it.
Certainly the "multiple attacker" scenario changes things but, IF wa son the ground VS more than 1, I would rather be under in control than on top getting kicked in the head or worse.
At least from the guard I can position him or/and myself better to use him as a shield if need be.

[k gledhill]

the natural thing would be to throw arms out to strike/block , but this just offers your arm to be broken/submitted as they roll off you with the arm , bad. I train with my student who teaches wrestling and studies bjj...best thing is to do a neck grab and keep the guy close to your chest to shut him down , shrimping etc... but thats why they call it wrestling .. I dont try to go there from experience of group fights and glass objects being smashed into faces , waste of good beer

[Phil Redmond]

I love this subject. I'd like hear WC solutions to the ground and pound if you're on your back.

[couch]

I love this subject. I'd like hear WC solutions to the ground and pound if you're on your back.

What good responses! Stoked to hear more.

[Liddel]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practitioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to control the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabbing him close to you to avoid getting hit?

Grabbing close is playing his game and turns you into a sitting duck if you have no skills/experience IME. Ive being controlled so well i had no other choice.

Chasing hands is not my cup of tea standing up, let alone out of my element.

On my back ive only got covering and hitting. Thrusting my knuckles into the windpipe in repeated stabbing motions...never leave a hand out. Pushing the head away and launching elbows after letting the tension go.....Holding the hair and palm striking the chin and follow through to twist the head around.

If i'm in his guard

Ive used elbows to good effect. I had my wrists being held to stop me raining down from the top position. Folding elbows is my heaviest action. Kup Jarn, stresses the grip too so it can release a hand with good power.

I use the idea one hand moves and the other catches, chi sao. helps to stop the opponent reading your intentions.

I also like to stand/posture up and launch stomps at the head. Be quick though cause you risk leg subs

I have limited rolling experience but a few friends in my sparring group have tonnes, none BB's.

Ive learn't a lot though.

DREW

[Wayfaring]

I just want to ask, what would a wing chun practioner do while being on the floor in the guard position. Would you rely on chi sao skills? to controll the opponent's hands or would you rely on grabing himclose to you to avoid getting hit?

Wrist control and/or chi sau from guard (opponent in your guard) is not preferrable. If your opponent can posture up and come to one foot they can use top position leverage to throw elbows over the top even with your wrists controlling. It takes a large amount of grappling skill to effectively play a wrist control game in no-gi from guard.

From a closed guard you need to keep control of your opponent by keeping them close to you with head and arm control. If they posture up and get position, go to open guard.

From an open guard, you can keep your opponent away with feet in hips and make enough space to get to your feet.

A very useful exercise to practice in guard is unbalancing your opponent with your legs grip. Have them posture up and throw some bombs down from the top. You can get timing going where just as they begin the punch you bump them with your legs bringing your knees to your chest so that the punch misses over your head. Using your legs and balance for punch defense helps immensely from taking damage along with arms / hand defense.

I personally go more for shoulder / neck control from guard. Lately I've been hitting Mission Control -> New York -> Chill Dog -> Jiu Claw a whole lot more. Then I can either finish the omoplata or if they roll to escape ride it out to get top position. Or switch to finishing a triangle. A good tight high guard that controls the torso is one of the best offensive progressions available.

So the ultimate answer is develop some more skill. And there's a few pointers on things to work.

[Wayfaring]

Some key points when you are in someone's guard:

1. Keep squared up on them. If there is a line between your head and their head there aren't a whole lot of effective submissions you can get caught in. You get in trouble when they angle off on you, their head 45 degrees off from yours.
2. Both hands in or both hands out. One in + one out = triangled.
3. If you can pin them against something in back of their head (cage, wall, etc.) you can strike from the top effectively. Go to one foot, and throw a strike or an elbow from that side.
4. If you're aggressive you can strike from the top and dominate. Keep #1 in mind and crank up the offensive pressure.

[Wayfaring]

WCK tends not to chase hands.

If you're being blitzed, you may have to worry about immediate protection, but just like standing, if all you do is engage the hands, eventually the hands will engage your face.

If blitzed, get feet in their hips to create more distance.

Even if you get good head and arm control, unless you're in a sanctioned MMA match and hoping for a ref to stand you up, control in and of itself won't help much (take the edge off a beating, but you're still stuck there being defensive).

Stalling there is preferrable to other alternatives. If you hip out continously rather than lay on your back, it produceds more options.

One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

Not a good idea. Save your energy for strikes from structure.

So, my own personal idea based on what I know today, would be to get offensive as quickly as possible to change the opponent's mindset and set up a strong pushing position, get them off balance and their weight off me, get my hips out while maintaining the strong alignment (so they don't just steam roll me back under them), and get to my feet ready to shoot or hit them (anything offensive) immediately.

Those are good ideas but it takes training to keep on offense from your back.

I've only dabbled at this kind of stuff, though, so doubtless Alan, anerlich, ultimatewingchun and some others can give more practical assessments.

Actually, Knifefighter (Dale) would rock on some of these discussions.

[Wayfaring]

Someone that knows the guard and how to use it can take out almost anyone from it.

I disagree. Most modern MMA shows that the guard in an MMA situation is not as dominant as a top position, even being in someone's guard. Personally although I work guard a decent amount I am much more confident with passing people's guard (even with experience) than I am submitting from guard. It's higher percentage for me to play top position becuase it's a high likelihood of me passing guard.

[anerlich]

I don't believe WC in itself really has a strategy for the situation where you're on your back and holding someone in the guard. It has strategies when you're on the ground and he is standing which are similar, viz. get your legs between you and him, and kick his legs and anything else to keep him away, or entangle his legs to take him down, getting enough time, space - and energy - to stand up yourself.

I wouldn't want to learn guard work from a WC guy, PERIOD. BJJ is everywhere these days, if this is a concern for you learn from some one who teaches a purpose built system.

John Will's (3rd degree Machado BB) standard response when teaching law enforcement personnel and others wanting a "crash course":

protect your head while he is blitzing with a "shell" or similar structure (spike, visor) with the arms

Pull him forward with your legs while his hands are busy

When his chest touches your arms, swim for tight double overhooks.

When the over hooks are on, place your feet between his and hook both ankles with your insteps - stretch him out flat, or move yourself away from his feet for the same result.

Get your hooks in, one at a time, then hook sweep him to mount. Depending on circumstance, bash/submit him from the mount, apply restraints, or switch to kneeride, punch and run.

Basically, if strikes are allowed, you either want him really close (neck control and overhook, or other postures depending on his hand position), or really far away - push his hips away with both feet. In between you are vulnerable to strikes.

The guard bottom is NOT a superior position unless your skill is above that of your opponent - it's about neutral if you both have some idea. Bets being mounted or in side control, or kneeride though. If you let him posture up in the guard, he CAN throw bombs effectively, and use them to pass your guard.

One of the advantages I think WCK has is its power generation, which doesn't rely on the same methods as some other standing systems, and so you if you've spent some time working off your back to adjust to the differences, you can still throw moderately effective stuff up at your opponent, short term.

Nope. The power generation for most WC (and, I daresay, all) comes from posture, stance and footwork, all of which are absent on your back. The guy on top is way ahead where striking power is concerned. You can say "we do WC so we hit really hard" (not all would agree), but the other guy might do it too (I do) so you're usually screwed in a punching contest. The upkick to the head (e.g. Renzo KOing Oleg Taktarov), however, is definitely viable. And you can do some damage to his knees with your feet, too.