Wing Chun in The Guard Position

[Wayfaring]

A couple of notes from my experience:

I've had the good fortune to train with Bravo (amazing coach), and while I love his half guard and twister (his bread and butter, though people seem more distracted by his rubber guard), he uses a very pull-based philosophy for a lot of his bottom work (double underhooks included), which while it can be excellent in BJJ and MMA, in my experience doesn't involve the most WCK-like of mechanics, so if we're talking what's most natural and high percentage for a WCK person who's not training BJJ for hours a day, I stick with push-based guard work being a more natural, high percentage strategy. (Likewise, Bravo's stuff requires either good flexibility or high degree angulation to pull off, nevermind the wake'n'bake aspect, which again might not fit an average WCK person integration). I think Andrew S. trained regularly with Bravo, so he could let me know if there's something obvious I'm missing.

Eddie's a great coach. I've attended his seminars and a group of guys I work with drill his game. His half guard game is fundamental in my opinion to a bottom game. I work all of that and with larger more athletic opponents it gives you an edge.

I haven't worked up his twister stuff yet, but do highly value his rubber guard game. I don't think it takes as much flexibility as people say it does. It does take working it a while to get the feel for the progression. But it gives you control and offense from the guard no-gi which you need to offset gravity.

I really don't think much about whether any BJJ involves WCK mechanics or not learning it. As I've progressed in my ground game, I have put together a lot of core fundamentals that are very similar in BJJ and WCK. Facing, alignment, and connection between elbow / hip have a lot similar.

I'm not sure I understand the push vs. pull elements here. When I get mission control (1st position in rubber guard), you lock down an ankle and connect your elbow and hip on the other side - this provides structure just like a good WCK stance. New York position (2nd position) gets their hand to the mat with you still having a good structure. All the way through that progression you have well-connected posture like in a good WCK stance, and you are breaking down your opponent's structure, like in WCK.

What do you mean by a push-based approach? Are you talking wrist control and throwing up triangles?

[monji112000]

From the guard, you very seldom want to just pull them directly onto yourself (Like in Chi sao also).

ok so If someone is in my guard I don't want to pull them and brake their posture? I don't want to pull them "like in chi sao" but I should pull them like in...? last I checked pull and push are opposite directions nothing real complicated. JMO
I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar.

Not sure why anyone with a little common sense can't figure this one out.

[reneritchie]

Hi Wayfaring,

Sorry, no, not throwing triangles or wrist control or anything like that.

What I'm referring to is that, for someone in WCK just looking to get familiar with being on the bottom and not training specifically for BJJ, I think pulling someone into you and doing tight closed guard like Eddie would be difficult (would require much more work, and would require training BJJ specifically). Most of Eddie's stuff is pull-based in that he loves pulling himself up, pulling his opponent down, pulling the tight underhooks, pulling their leg for old school, pulling your leg for missing control, pulling their neck for twister, etc.

For a WCK who isn't training BJJ, I think the strategy of pushing weight off, pushing to change angles, pushing to make space, pushing to get up off you back, etc. is easier to learn/realize. (More in keeping with Joe Moreira's lazy man guard, bench press escapes, etc.)

Personally, my first MA was judo, I did judo in college, and I've grappled for a few years, so I'm not too uncomfortable on my back (Fedor-style bombs not withstanding...), so I'm really just commenting on what I feel is easiest/fastest for a non-grappling WCK person to integrate if they just want to get out of the guard (having someone in their guard).

[anerlich]

its not about ego.

It is if you think that what you have spent a lot of time learning in one scenario is necessarily going to work better in every other situation than the ideas the instructor is presenting.

WC isn't a mindset, its a group of ideas.

A mindset is viewing the world through a particular group of ideas and/or prejudices.

Its like telling a piano player to forget playing the piano when he dances with a woman... its not possible you fuse your feelings together. Humans are not cups, they can't be emptied and filled at will. You draw from your life, even if you say you don't.

The cup is an analogy (duh). A fairly valid one IMO and one well known to most CMA or JMA practitiioners. You can draw from your previous experience, don't kid yourself it's necessarily the most valid way to learn the skill you are trying to learn. You're making it out to be black and whilte when it's shades of grey.

I listen to every word the black belt tells me, I even write them down. (I want to get as much for the $$ I'm paying).

Sensible lad. So do I and just about every other serious BJJ student and instructor I know. I do it to remember and reflect on what I've been shown and learned rather than because of pecuniary issues.

Its the same if you take MT, CLF, lama pai person who starts a sport. Every styles has principles, lama's was stuff like ruthlessness ect... should someone forget those ideas? can they if they really trained them?

You may surprise yourself if you try. You don't have to forget them, just don't hang onto them for grim death when you're trying to learn something new. (the lama guy might want to forget ruthlessness if he takes up salsa dancing, BTW).

Not sure why anyone with a little common sense can't figure this one out.

This thread isn't your soapbox. It's to share ideas. Try listening as well as trying so hard to impress others with your knowledge and insisting on being right. Basically, it gets back to that stuff I mentioned about the empty cup and the ego.

I agree that pulling them in to break their structure is a good tactic.

I use bits of the rubber guard, but I fear for my dodgy knees too much to get too deeply into it. One of the black belts at my club is fiendishly good at it and a couple of the other purple belts are pretty competent as well.

[monji112000]

It is if you think that what you have spent a lot of time learning in one scenario is necessarily going to work better in every other situation than the ideas the instructor is presenting.

you are correct, and thats why I don't think that

Its really humerus, when you start to see what people learn and what they don't learn. Maybe your cup was already empty before you filled it? Still has nothing to do with the fact that "I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar."

IE don't try to invent a new grappling style or be afraid to experiment with BJJ ect..
sounds to me like I'm saying learn the ideas the instructor is presenting. What do I know... I only wrote the text.

Just as a point, I can't do the rubber guard, and I don't plan on adding it to my game anytime soon. I am more impressed with his other ideas.

[Edmund]

ok so If someone is in my guard I don't want to pull them and brake their posture?

You don't break someone's posture by pulling alone unless they don't have good posture. If someone's posturing up with their hands, pulling them down is not that strong. After they've postured up, they are going to open your guard and pass.

I don't want to pull them "like in chi sao" but I should pull them like in...? last I checked pull and push are opposite directions nothing real complicated. JMO

You want to pull them so that their weight is pulled off you.
(You don't really want to pull someone straight towards you in chi sao either.)

It's not a 1 dimensional thing. "Push to the side" and "Pull to the side" can be the same direction done with a different hand.

I'm not saying do chi sao or WC in your guard. What I said was many of the modern grappling (bjj,csw, sambo ect..) techniques are compliant and share many principles. You should not need to reinvent the wheel, you may end up finding many techniques are similar.

I think you should get on their wrists straight away actually. If you want to call it ground chi sao that's fine, but pull or push it to one side. Take it completely over your shoulder if you have to because if he locks down your hips he's going to kill a lot of your options and he can start to pass.

[reneritchie]

If the person's head breaks the plane of their hands (i.e. if their hands are pushing down on your hips, but their head is over your stomach or ribs), you can certainly pull with your legs and break their posture, and have them tumble over-head, but then what?

They've lost balance and control over their own momentum, but if you're not (more) skilled in BJJ what will you do with the opening? If they scramble and get back posture (even head down and arms on your sides), you're still squashed and they're more careful (and likely butting and smacking you in the side of the head).

Both Andrew and Edmund are wise and generous in their advice here. Unless you want to play the guard game, you have to escape, and if you can't escape immediately (and you really should try, especially before they get settled), defend and create openings to escape.

[Wayfaring]

Hi Wayfaring,

Sorry, no, not throwing triangles or wrist control or anything like that.

What I'm referring to is that, for someone in WCK just looking to get familiar with being on the bottom and not training specifically for BJJ, I think pulling someone into you and doing tight closed guard like Eddie would be difficult (would require much more work, and would require training BJJ specifically). Most of Eddie's stuff is pull-based in that he loves pulling himself up, pulling his opponent down, pulling the tight underhooks, pulling their leg for old school, pulling your leg for missing control, pulling their neck for twister, etc.

For a WCK who isn't training BJJ, I think the strategy of pushing weight off, pushing to change angles, pushing to make space, pushing to get up off you back, etc. is easier to learn/realize. (More in keeping with Joe Moreira's lazy man guard, bench press escapes, etc.)

Personally, my first MA was judo, I did judo in college, and I've grappled for a few years, so I'm not too uncomfortable on my back (Fedor-style bombs not withstanding...), so I'm really just commenting on what I feel is easiest/fastest for a non-grappling WCK person to integrate if they just want to get out of the guard (having someone in their guard).

OK - I got you. Playing an open guard like Moreira's, getting a foot in hips, pushing off, and standing up.

I think having two options is good here for non-grapplers - one a closed guard and getting upper body control like Andrew said - double overhooks or one overhook and neck control is good to keep someone from throwing leather from the top. Combine this with unbalancing with the legs to get someone into closed guard.

The second option - an open guard that you work to make space to stand up. Foot in hips, push off, bench press, de la riva with one foot in a hip and going for a single leg takedown, etc.

If people could work those 2 - closed guard for keeping from being hit, and open guard for getting back to striking range that would be decent.

[reneritchie]

Wayfaring,

Very well said! That way, if one way is somehow shut down, it could just open up the other way.

[anerlich]

Maybe your cup was already empty before you filled it?

Not sure what you're implying.

I was awarded gold sash / instructor level in TWC in 1995, and started BJJ in 1998. I also had about five years each of Xingyi/BaGua and another eclictic KF style. If I'd thought my cup was better at least partially filled, that was certainly possible. But I found out it wasn't, for me at least. Somewhere around blue belt level or before.

Pushing the head away to the side, especially when they've grabbed your legs and are trying to pass, is an effective tactic. Arm drag (pull) from sitting/butterfly guard works beautifully in a pure grappling situation, though you want to watch for strikes if they're on. Rene gave a good description of how to break the guy down in closed guard when the opportunity presents itself. Getting them off to the side while you do this might get you a kimura, sweep or head/arm choke.

[Wayfaring]

I use bits of the rubber guard, but I fear for my dodgy knees too much to get too deeply into it. One of the black belts at my club is fiendishly good at it and a couple of the other purple belts are pretty competent as well.

The one area in rubber guard I've seen people jack up their knee ligaments is trying to power into Mission Control when they don't have posture broken down. There's a point past where posture is broken that Mission Control is a tight locked hold. If it's loose, or they get postured up, let go and go back to guard. Break their posture again, then go for Mission Control. Eddie uses bringing the other foot over for Crackhead control too.

The only thing absolutely not to do is try to break their posture with your leg across. That is your sideways knee ligament stablizers fighting against their back muscles. This fight ends up with people out of commision for 6 months.

Other than that one point, I have not experienced any dangerous issues with any of his game, rubber guard, half guard, butterfly, etc. I don't use his game 100%, but it's blended too.

[Wayfaring]

Pushing the head away to the side, especially when they've grabbed your legs and are trying to pass, is an effective tactic. Arm drag (pull) from sitting/butterfly guard works beautifully in a pure grappling situation, though you want to watch for strikes if they're on. Rene gave a good description of how to break the guy down in closed guard when the opportunity presents itself. Getting them off to the side while you do this might get you a kimura, sweep or head/arm choke.

All good solid stuff.

[anerlich]

Wayfaring,

I have a dodgy medial ligament on one knee, and some cartilage damage on both. Not bad enough for a reconstruction. The bad knee is actually quite strong when fully flexed or straighter than about 90 degrees - it's getting that twist on in between that is my danger area. I can hit triangles reasonably well on one side but not the other.

I actually use mission control and retard control fairly regularly if the guy is hunkered down. Crackhead control and all the gogoplata, locoplata, the "kung fu move", etc. where you're really cranking that knee past the guy's head, etc. fill me with dread.

All his half guard and butterfly moves are good stuff IMO, though a lot of instructors teach similar stuff anyway. A few guys at my gym have some of the twister game, my current interests lie elsewhere for now.

[Wayfaring]

Wayfaring,

I have a dodgy medial ligament on one knee, and some cartilage damage on both. Not bad enough for a reconstruction. The bad knee is actually quite strong when fully flexed or straighter than about 90 degrees - it's getting that twist on in between that is my danger area. I can hit triangles reasonably well on one side but not the other.

I actually use mission control and retard control fairly regularly if the guy is hunkered down. Crackhead control and all the gogoplata, locoplata, the "kung fu move", etc. where you're really cranking that knee past the guy's head, etc. fill me with dread.

All his half guard and butterfly moves are good stuff IMO, though a lot of instructors teach similar stuff anyway. A few guys at my gym have some of the twister game, my current interests lie elsewhere for now.

Cool. I understand about the limitations.

[reneritchie]

I went to Bravo's Kingston seminar right after straining my left ACL at a BJJ tournament. Since Eddie only trains one side, and that was the side, it was an interesting experience to say the least. (I also had a strained rib that day).

I survived by hipping out more to and turing in slightly to reduce the strain on my knee. Eddie didn't seem to have a problem with that. However, it did become problematic enough over time that I switched to focus on other (less knee-straining) stuff.