Hung Gar

[PM]

you re welcomed i am more on the other forum but i will try to give you short reply here:

Did Hung Gar really come from the Southern Shaolin temple and when we say 'the' Southern Shaolin temple which one are we talking about (I've read there were three)?

the oral history says Hung Kyun comes from the Southern Shaolin. which? (Fujian, Fuqing, Quanzhou), no clue. old text speak only of Fujian Shaolin or Nine Lotus Mountain Shaolin.

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Did Gee Sim really exist or was the story of the elders escaping Shaolin simply fabricated by anti-Qing rebels to add legitimacy to their style?

- well, i do not know, all we have is oral "history". might be like this or that. what we certainly know is that Jisin simsi is first time mentioned in a written sources in "Thousand Years of Ching", a novel from cca. 1893.

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Who was the historical Hung Hei Goon a tea merchant or an aristocrat and cousin of the Ming royalty?

- Hung Heigun is another story, he seems to be a real person, as a person with this name is mentioned in Fujian archives (as a rebel who killed some guy with a single strike), i have also read that his grave is still somewhere there. traditional oral story goes that he was a tea merchant, but one of his ancestors was 15. son of the last Ming emperor

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How many different branches of Hung Gar are there out there and how do the curriculums differ/compare? Assuming that Gung Gee fook fu kuen is the basis of Hung Gar where did the rest come from?

- many, and many different. for last couple of years i have been doing research in China (so far just in Guangdong), but even there asre many legitimate branches of what we call today Hung Kyun: fu hok Hung Kyun, saam jin Hung kyun, hubg syun Hung Kyun, Lau Taan Ho Hung Kyun, Dang ga Hung kyun... some (old) Hung Kyun branches are also in Fujian. (gung ji) fuk fu kyun is common only to some of them. curriculum differs a lot, but the core concepts are similar. (old) Hung Kyun is very close to all Fujian styles, especially White Crane (i belive it is one of the manin sources of todays Hung Kyun). no doubt that most dominant line in Gwongdung is Wong Feihung's or better say Lam Saiwing's Hung Kyun - i heard them from all of the Hung kyun masters in Southern China i have met, and i have met many of them.

summary: Lam Saiwing and his generation is very well recored. we have also some reliable written and oral sources about Wong Feihung. before Wong Feihung, nobody knows.

the question is: what is it really Hung Kyun? old sources speak just of "martial art" or Shaolin, just rarely of Hung Kyun. Wong Feihung's Hung Kyun is mix of various martial arts of Southern China.

hypothesis: Hung kyun is a generic term of martial art practiced by members of Chinese secret societies (Hung mun) in Guangdong and Fujian? the story about its origing is a typical foundational myth, same as in the case of the origin of Hung mun (Hong men, Tian di hui, San he hui... )?

btw. similar questions (especialyl about Southern Shaolin) bother the historians of so called Chinese secret societies - i recommend you to check them out, some very interesting info there

curently there is quite extensive research about the subjectin China, if you can read Chinese, i can recommend you some articles

also, check this (article written by brother of Sifu, not much details, but in my opinion really good one)

http://www.lghk.org/en/articles/martialstudies.htm

[Crosshandz]

you re welcomed more on the other forum but i will try to give you short reply here:

Did Hung Gar really come from the Southern Shaolin temple and when we say 'the' Southern Shaolin temple which one are we talking about (I've read there were three)?

the oral history says Hung Kyun comes from the Southern Shaolin. which? (Fujian, Fuqing, Quanzhou), no clue. old text speak only of Fujian Shaolin or Nine Lotus Mountain Shaolin.

---

Did Gee Sim really exist or was the story of the elders escaping Shaolin simply fabricated by anti-Qing rebels to add legitimacy to their style?

- well, i do not know, all we have is oral "history". might be like this or that. what we certainly know is that Jisin simsi is first time mentioned in a written sources in "Thousand Years of Ching", a novel from cca. 1893.

---

Who was the historical Hung Hei Goon a tea merchant or an aristocrat and cousin of the Ming royalty?

- Hung Heigun is another story, he seems to be a real person, as a person with this name is mentioned in Fujian archives (as a rebel who killed some guy with a single strike), i have also read that his grave is still somewhere there. traditional oral story goes that he was a tea merchant, but one of his ancestors was 15. son of the last Ming emperor

---

How many different branches of Hung Gar are there out there and how do the curriculums differ/compare? Assuming that Gung Gee fook fu kuen is the basis of Hung Gar where did the rest come from?

- many, and many different. for last couple of years i have been doing research in China (so far just in Guangdong), but even there asre many legitimate branches of what we call today Hung Kyun: fu hok Hung Kyun, saam jin Hung kyun, hubg syun Hung Kyun, Lau Taan Ho Hung Kyun, Dang ga Hung kyun... some (old) Hung Kyun branches are also in Fujian. (gung ji) fuk fu kyun is common only to some of them. curriculum differs a lot, but the core concepts are similar. (old) Hung Kyun is very close to all Fujian styles, especially White Crane (i belive it is one of the manin sources of todays Hung Kyun). no doubt that most dominant line in Gwongdung is Wong Feihung's or better say Lam Saiwing's Hung Kyun - i heard them from all of the Hung kyun masters in Southern China i have met, and i have met many of them.

summary: Lam Saiwing and his generation is very well recored. we have also some reliable written and oral sources about Wong Feihung. before Wong Feihung, nobody knows.

the question is: what is it really Hung Kyun? old sources speak just of "martial art" or Shaolin, just rarely of Hung Kyun. Wong Feihung's Hung Kyun is mix of various martial arts of Southern China.

hypothesis: Hung kyun is a generic term of martial art practiced by members of Chinese secret societies (Hung mun) in Guangdong and Fujian? the story about its origing is a typical foundational myth, same as in the case of the origin of Hung mun (Hong men, Tian di hui, San he hui... )?

btw. similar questions (especialyl about Southern Shaolin) bother the historians of so called Chinese secret societies - i recommend you to check them out, some very interesting info there

curently there is quite extensive research about the subjectin China, if you can read Chinese, i can recommend you some articles

also, check this (article written by brother of Sifu, not much details, but in my opinion really good one)

http://www.lghk.org/en/articles/martialstudies.htm

Thanks for that full and extensive reply. I wish I could read Chinese because this topic seems so rich.

[David Jamieson]

There is no actual bonafide absolute truth to that question.

you will find that there are many branches of the tree, but none can go so far back as to see from where the seed was thrown.

ultimately, those who are alive today and who propagate the style itself are what's important.

Or you can choose to argue about whose grandpa has th right version of the story that didn't even happen in their own lifetime.

also, how well do you know your math teacher? where'd that come from and does it have relevance to whether or not the math you are learning is correct?

[Crosshandz]

There is no actual bonafide absolute truth to that question.

you will find that there are many branches of the tree, but none can go so far back as to see from where the seed was thrown.

ultimately, those who are alive today and who propagate the style itself are what's important.

Or you can choose to argue about whose grandpa has th right version of the story that didn't even happen in their own lifetime.

also, how well do you know your math teacher? where'd that come from and does it have relevance to whether or not the math you are learning is correct?

I appreciate your standpoint and there is some merit to what you're saying. However, even in maths they teach you about the theories and their provenance e.g. Pythagoras.

Its not simply enough to simply be. If I hit my head tomorrow and woke up an amnesiac I think I'd feel like a huge part of me was missing as my past to a large extent constitutes who I am today.

What Hung Gar is today is a reflection of the development it has undergone since its formation. I feel to appreciate the art as it is means to have, or at least to attempt to have, some grasp of its history however obscure that may be.

[David Jamieson]

I appreciate your standpoint and there is some merit to what you're saying. However, even in maths they teach you about the theories and their provenance e.g. Pythagoras.

Its not simply enough to simply be. If I hit my head tomorrow and woke up an amnesiac I think I'd feel like a huge part of me was missing as my past to a large extent constitutes who I am today.

What Hung Gar is today is a reflection of the development it has undergone since its formation. I feel to appreciate the art as it is means to have, or at least to attempt to have, some grasp of its history however obscure that may be.

fwiw in most respects, oral tradition and the cultural revolution have left the waters forever muddy.

there is only what there is.

[SIFU RON]

David's words are wise words.

No proof exists where the beginning of Hung Ga or for that matter where and when KF began.

It is rewarding to know the past, to trace History, however when the Communists took over China all that information vanished.

I was told Hung Ga originated with the " Boat People of China " and that Kung Fu began before the " Temple" existed. True or not ? It doesn't make much difference to me, stories of the past that cannot be proved are simply an opinion. However the Tradional Hung Ga Style is phenomenal.

This forum is a good place to research information regarding the History of anything to do with Kung Fu, also Tai Chi Kung Fu magazine is an excellent source of Chinese M/A information. Unless you have already done it, Subscribe to it , and keep us informed of your progress.

[bawang]

i think hung kuen is a political idea, but i dont think many people really believe in it

the manchus are defeeted, but there is new enemy to fight

[David Jamieson]

i think hung kuen is a political idea, but i dont think many people really believe in it

the manchus are defeeted, but there is new enemy to fight

that's right! you tube copycats! get them! they're doing it wrong!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

According to the movie, Shaolin Executioners, Hung kuen came from the combination of tiger and crane styles used by the Son of Hung sin quan, to defeat the evil Taoist priest Bai Mei.
Good enough for me !!

[TenTigers]

yeah, except Hung Man-Ting was entirely made up for the movie by Lau Ka Leung.
Funny thing-there is a school that has him in their lineage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, except Hung Man-Ting was entirely made up for the movie by Lau Ka Leung.
Funny thing-there is a school that has him in their lineage.

Lies !!!
I have proof !!

[David Jamieson]

yeah, except Hung Man-Ting was entirely made up for the movie by Lau Ka Leung.
Funny thing-there is a school that has him in their lineage.

That's ...beautiful...*tear*

[shaolin23]

How many forms in the Hung Gar system?
What are their names?

Any videos would be nice!

[PM]

hello, you can see the complete curriculum of Lam family Hung Kyun at

http://www.lghk.org/en/curriculum/index.htm

couple of videos are here:

http://www.lghk.org/en/videos.htm

and as for Hung Ga Kyun, i can recommend you a forum devoted solely to this art

http://www.hungkyun.com

all the best!

[peace&love]

You can check out Buck Sam Kong's and Donald Hamby's websites. They are excellent resources for Hung Gar. They also have DVDs available.