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Thread: Arizona Mantis

  1. #61
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    Wushu is a word used since pre-PRC but officially adopted by the government of PRC to describe all martial arts (sporting and otherwise). Regardless of the bad taste it leaves in many overseas Chinese people's mouths (due to it's communist connotations), it is only a name. No different to gongfu/kungfu, which is more popularly used to describe 'traditional' Chinese martial arts. What is widely known as gongfu throughout the Chinese diaspora is known in PRC today as chuantong wushu- traditional martial arts. Sports/performance/modern wushu is a different thing. Not everything known as wushu is sports wushu. Regardless, as Jake said, anything entirely based on the practice of forms and void of all fighting/self defence aspects and training methodology is neither gongfu nor chuantong wushu. This does not mean that many CMA that are known as 'traditional' are any value in teaching the above.

    When people in the West (particularly America it seems) say 'wushu mantis', they are generally referring to the modern, competition Tanglang routine developed by Yu Hai and it's many derivatives. Of course there are now many more versions designed entirely for competition that actually closely resemble 'traditional' tanglang but these have not yet been widely exposed outside of China. On top of that, there are also many who are of the opinion that any and all TLQ that comes out of PRC post 1940's is 'modern wushu'. Regardless, the sports routines I initially mentioned contain almost no applicable techniques, particularly after the first generation- largely because application was not taught (in fact officially forbidden). Yu Hai did train extensively in classical Tanglang and did include a number of combinations from classical TLQ (extracted from Tou Tao among other routines) but exaggerated these considerably to enhance their appearance. Anyone who tries to teach 'seriously' teach the fighting applications for the majority of movements found in modern wushu (beyond simple and true techniques such as thrust punching, treading kicks etc) is kidding themselves. By the same token, many who teach 'traditional' martial arts and do teach many fighting techniques and applications are also kidding themselves. As an interesting aside, i have met many modern wushu athletes in China and elsewhere who can dish out a severe beating if required (not to mention the fact that many also train and fight sanshou at some stage). A coordinated, fit, fast, determined opponent with even half a brain is a threat, regardless of if he trained in ballet or vale tudo.

    BT

  2. #62

    Talking I see....said the blind man...to his deaf wife

    Wow thanks for the info Jake and B.Tunks.

    Jake- I think I understand what you meant by a
    by "traditional" a little more now.
    I usually think of forms themselves as traditional when they haven't been changed or modified to meet a sport level standard. I wasn't taking into account training methods vs knowing the applications of the forms.
    Thanks



    B.Tunks- Thank you for that great history info, I didn't know who created the wushu mantis forms and that was really great info.
    As far as the world---- wushu-
    - I hate the derogatory connotation of the word because
    I have always been under the impression that word actually translates as "martial art" or "kingdom art" or even "the art of stopping a fight". If you look at the characters for "wu" It looks quite like a stake driven into the ground there is a line where the ground is and above is the a line connected to this stake representing perhaps a horse trying to run <---> left or right but it cant because of the stake.----To Stop--- The other character looks like a guy swinging a stick or sword.--A Fight--

    Wushu if looked at like this is the art(shu) of stopping a fight as quickly as possible. Of course the quickest way to stop a fight is to not have a fight. Avoid it and make it a last resort.
    But if you have to fight you should disable your opponent as quickly as possible.

    Just wanted to know what you think of about that interpretation of the word.
    -Thanks again.
    “Build rather than destroy,
    Avoid rather than check,
    Check rather than maim,
    Maim rather than kill,
    For all life is precious,
    Nor can any be replaced” - Chuen Yuan, Li Shou, Pai Yu Feng

  3. #63
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    Wushu unto itself means martial art. But the connotation is totally different here in the west, and I imagine in the east as well since the advent of modern Wushu. Again semantics.
    I understand your frustration. It is something we all have to deal with. In a perfect world each and every teacher would be honest with his/her students and most importantly with themselves! I know a wushu teacher back in NM who claims she does "real" this and that. They spend one week a month going over techniques from there endless list of forms. No sparring mind you. Just going over some techniques in an hour long class (if that long. I want to say it was a 45 minute class!!)!
    I wanted to host my teacher Tim one time at their school (rent space from her). She went to Tim's site where he mentions that modern wushu has no combative training in it. She went through the roof! Would not have anything to do with us because "that is clearly not true of all wushu stylists, and I do not want my students getting confused..." which loosely translates in Jakeese as: "My students will see that I am teaching them **** when a quality instrcutor rolls through, there fore I will have nothing to do with this in order to save face, and money in my pocket."
    From that point on she would not even advertise when Tim came into town!

    Anyhoo... my point is, we all have ego's, and that is not a bad thing. But are you controlling your ego, or is it riding you? Just gotta be honest. I am not a MMA fighter! I do not train like they do, nor at the intensity they do. I would never call myself a MMA fighter for that reason alone! I spar. I train hard. I share that with my students. But in the end I have different goals and training methods than someone gearing up for a MMA bout. IS one better than the other? No. Just different intent's. A lot of people live in fantasy worlds where they are not this honest with themselves, let alone their students! THAT is the crying shame!!

    Hope this helps,
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  4. #64
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    Smile

    the Word "Wu" actually means to use a weapon called "Ge" to stop. This is then interpreted by some to say stopping force, in which case they omit the mentioning of using of weapon. Ge usually used in conjunction with a shield called Gan; hence, the term Gan Ge, is an ancient weapon said to have been invented by Xia Dynasty (2033 - 1562 BCE) Emperor Qi. It is a lance like weapon with a metal tip, usually bronze, that is in a bit of a T shape, which gives the weapon the ability to either function as a pike or grappling hook. This weapon is wildly used on the battlefield because of the use of chariots in ancient times. When the Chariots are no longer a standard in warfare by the end of Qin dynasty (221 - 206 BCE) , the Ge are also retired with it.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


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  5. #65
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    Learn something new everyday! Thanks!
    So do most Chinese think of that when using "Wu" or has Wu become the standard for martial? Know what I mean?
    Thanks
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  6. #66
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    Thumbs up **Wipes away a tear**

    Members actually having open-mided discourse without the flames,...I love you guys! LOL!

    Seiously, I appreciate everyones conduct & the information shared.

    Best wishes to all, (as always)
    ~BTL
    How many identities does a Troll need?
    Didn't think I knew did you??
    I know a lot of things.
    You won't like me in person either.
    Confused?? Don't be.
    LOL!

  7. #67
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    Where you been slim shady?? Long time no hear! We need a Mantis Beer gathering is what we need. Screw the training, lets work our Iron Liver Qigong
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  8. #68
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    Speaking of, what happened to the "yearly" Mantis gathering? Guess I need to light a fire under Steve's butt again.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  9. #69
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    I truthfully thought after Ohio that we would indeed see an annual gathering, it was a great start. Hopefully MQ can get things together plan another and keep them coming. Yao, are you going to be the Wah Lum rep? No one showed up to represent in Ohio, does not surprise me though. WL sort of stays in there little click. If you want to light a fire, why dont you show up?
    I am still a student practicing - Wang Jie Long

    "Don`t Taze Me Bro"

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