Arizona Mantis

[shaolin_allan]

Jake we've already dropped the subject. It was dumb for us to start arguing in the first place. Let's just move on from here. It's not that people only want to hear what they like, it's how you give your opinion and when that can make it negative. There's lots of subjects on these forums we don't agree about. Yu Shan gave you some great compliments just accept them and move on and let it go. The subject is mantis kung fu from here on out.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

OK before we drop the subject I have something to say.... first off thank you Shaolin Allan for attempting to correct the falsehoods of Three Harmonies regarding Master Joseph Eagar.

Three Harmonies I know for a fact that you only studied with Joe for 3HRS --ONE TIME and for you to claim that ___
A___Master Eagar teaches wushu not traditional
B___That he has no applications based on a single 3 hr training session is just plain ignorant .

Your comments are hurtful and slanderous as they belittle a great teacher who for 30 more than years has shared his knowledge of Chinese Martial arts with the world.

#1......I have a tape of his from more than 10 years ago of mantis where at the end he breaks down all of the fighting applications. And I will post this on you tube with Joe's permission as soon as I can convert it.
#2......Doesn't teach traditional....ARE YOU NUTS! I have been training with him for more than 4 years and he knows and teaches more tradition forms, chi gung sets and training methods than any other instructor I know of in Arizona. I have forms in my Mizong yi system that are hundreds of years old. Oh and I know the applications of these moves btw.. Now I know we are talking Mantis here but to say he doesn't teach traditional is a blatant lie.

Don't get on these forums and discredit a great teacher based on a SINGLE lesson.
TRADITIONAL teachers didn't show students applications for a very very long time so if he didn't show you applications maybe its because he realized what kind of person you are and he decided you have not earned the right to learn these things---

Luckily people on this forum aren't dumb enough to believe anything you say about him anyways.

[Three Harmonies]

Well actually it was more than just once, but if you say so
I was making reference to his Mantis. The mantis I was shown was Wushu bro. Period. As I stated previously and will again for those who cannot read, I have no clue about his other arts. Mantis is all I ever saw him do.
Do I know you? I love it when people tell me they know EXACTLY what and how long, and etc. about me! Post a name dude, quit hiding behind a computer.
Jake

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Im not trying to start a fight a with you but I know you trained with him at Li Gen Hengs one time for about 3 hours if there were other times then tell me where and when?

The comment you made" "Number one Eager is wushu. Period. Unless he has trained traditional stuff in the last 6 or so years since I have seen him. Sorry to burst any bubbles.

"Last 6 years? Dude---Did you try asking him to teach you a more tradition form or system like 7stars?....HMMMMMMMMM? ---You get on here trying to sway someone from a teacher who could really help them grow as a martial artist base on what you ASSUME you know about him.

The fact is is that all Sifu Eagar SHOWED you was "wushu" that doesn't mean he doesn't teach other mantis forms and he most certainly knows and teaches application and if you are still not convinced next time your down in Phoenix stop by 3rd st and Mariposa and He'd be glad to demonstrate then for you. You make it sound like he's all about contemporary wushu ie.....compulsory routines etc....this is very far from the truth perhaps Dynamic Wushu -Kenny Perrez (one of his teachers)-and his students are who you are thinking of. They do more Wushu then traditional.

And to answer you Im not hiding and no I don't know you personally. My name is Jason if you are in Phoenix again please stop by our school and Master Eagar will be more than happy to demonstrate TRADITIONAL MANTIS applications for you.
If you didnt want all this backlash you could have said this instead

---


" All of the forms I learned from Master Eagar were wushu mantis forms. He did not show me any traditional forms or applications."

Thats the facts not your assumptions.

[Three Harmonies]

Well Jason, I guess you don't "know" much then, because I have not been around Mr. Eager in over 6 years, so obviously you were not there..... but anyhoo.
We are on a Mantis forum, about Mantis in Arizona, so sorry for presuming we were talking about Mr. Eager's Mantis. I stated my experience and observations. Sorry you do not like them. But again, you weren't there.
If you prefer I can write the sentence you have so nicely provided (minus the master part) if it makes you feel better.
Thank you also for the invite. I doubt I will be back in Phoenix for anything, but if ever I am I have many better things to do kid. No need to get all ruffled. I stated my experience with Mr. Eager. I even said he is good at what he does. If he is the "master" you claim he is I am sure he is comfortable moving on in life regardless of my opinion of him (which is good).
Cheers
Jake

[mantid1]

I think three was saying that he didnt know the guy taught traditional mantis...from his experience. Probably didnt mean any harm...his communication skills may be a bit lacking. It is also easy to take things the wrong way on a forum.

I would like to see some video footage of someone fighting using authentic tang lang. Not drills, or slapping around. Something in a Muay Thai, Lei Tei or mma format....where you have to use your skills or you will be hurt. I havnt seen any posted on a forum or anywhere else. At least nothing I would say would make it stand out as mantis.

I guess my point would be what does it matter if apps are taught if the the instructor has never tested his skills? once again not with drills or safe sparring scenarios. If they did where they using something that was mantis?

So If I say someone isnt teaching the real deal I should be able to produce video of myself fighting the real deal demonstrating what mantis is. If I cant then I am probably dancing around like everyone else. But really think you are doing it because we can talk apps.

The reason the muay thai and bjj guys get respect is because they go in there and fight using there methods over and over again. The proof is their for everyone to see. Its not the case with mantis.

If I produced a vid of myself fighting most would not recognize it as 100% tang lang. I have to say at this point in my life it would not be pretty

So, I am trying not to be judgmental on other people or styles...because I feel I fall short myself.

[shaolin_allan]

Mantid1 you make some excellent points. Everyone always discusses the effectiveness of mantis. There are an endless number of books and videos, but seeing actual use in real combat is rare to none. Most people who fight would not use pure mantis. If you notice on any fighting or sparring videos, they almost always resort to basic kick boxing or karate type fighting.

[mantid1]

I will go out on a limb and say the I enjoy learning and practicing mantis much more than the other styles I have studied. There is alot to it....all of the drills...theory...philosophy...weapons..etc. All of this extra "stuff" is why I enjoy it. I do it because I enjoy it.

I think all of this extra "stuff" in mantis may be like a bunch of extra options on a new car....you really dont need them to get the job done....it justs makes it more fun getting there!

It shouldnt take long to become an effective fighter to defend yourself on a basic level against a real challenge.....maybe six months depending on the person. But it would get fairly boring after that.

Still waiting for some real mantis fighting vids...I want to see how it is done by the mantis boxers!

[Three Harmonies]

Mantid 1
Perhaps we are in agreement for the first time
My fighting certainly does not "look" like Mantis. A culmination of the past 17 years of martial arts. Certain principles and theories from Mantis are very common and prevelant, but overall I agree with your car analogy. Not needed, just extra.
Cheers
Jake

[mantid1]

I dont think I disagree on many things. In fact I think I would agree 99% with you on what is important when it comes to fighting.

Art and combat may seem similar when training in a martial arts school....if the students never have actual combat using some of the types of fights I mentioned above. I believe this is where the misconceptions about traditional martial arts come into play.

There is nothing wrong with studying or teaching a traditinal art and it can help in certain self defense situations. But, the instructor should know his/her limitations when it comes to actual combat and not mislead students.

I was fortunate enough to start out in a style that taught grappling, a little ground fighting, kicking, punching chi na from the beginning. But even then we didnt get each other down and pound them in the face like the mma guys do today. I doubt I would like that much....being I would probably have been the guy getting pounded

[Three Harmonies]

Excellent points!
Jake

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Well Jake
I appreciate your feedback and like I said feel free to stop by next time you are in town for whatever.
---All Im trying to say is this.---

MASTER Eagar does teach traditional and wushu Mantis as well as applications.

Your experience doesn't reflect that and thus It should be made clear to people
looking for a good mantis teacher in Arizona/Phoenix.

BTW
I hardly think 29 makes me a "kid" but I don't doubt that you are much older than me judging by the pictures of you I have seen on the web. Id guess 37/38?

Oh and I am not the only one who thinks he is a master- As a 25+ year practitioner of Chinese martial arts His teachers rank him a 5th degree black sash -if we need to get technical . Some of his many teachers are Master Kenny Perrez, and Kwan Sai Hung, --So yeah Master would actually be a more appropriate title.

But I digress I am not trying to make war with you Jake. He is my teacher so DUH I got offended. If you weren't trying to bad mouth him it sure seemed like it to me.So I guess my mistake and I apologize if I said anything that offended you.I think we should all be brothers in wushu (and by wushu I mean all of the Chinese Martial Arts-) .Lets end all of this though and focus on the subject of mantis--

OK to make one point on the topic of fighting--I punch or a kick are just that so in a fight a mantis fighter may use techniques that are universal and not mantis -per say-but the majority of techniques and movements should be relevant to the system.Still I don't think that you should avoid a good chin-na or something if the situation comes up just because its not specifically a part of your"style" Plus some moves in a form are considerably less flashy in application than in the form.

[shirkers1]

Oh boy oh boy I am so glad I don't check in like I used to.. lol But I'm bored today so I'll respond..

Jake my friend, I chuckled reading this thread. I miss the banter.. lol

I've been here in northern phoenix for 10 years now and I've searched for ANY quality mantis and I'm sorry to say there is nothing of value here period. Unless some cat is hiding away in a basement or garage I should say since we don't have basements here, there is nothing I would dedicate my time to. That includes the schools posted already. Does that mean they suck? No.. just means what they had to offer wasn't what I was looking for in my personal training.

Now let me say that by "value" and the value in what I'm looking for is that I mean a person who teaches mantis with the mindset of using it for combat. I don't care about attending tournys, doing wushu forms for show, I'm all about practical use. Plenty of two man and applications.

I know you guys don't know me and you obviously don't know jake and his background in combat either. Or you wouldn't be so turned off by what he has said so far. Because if you rolled or played with him you would be ashamed at the training you've had to date. I being a research hound would question what he has said and figure out why he says what he says. There are tons of "material" out there on Jake and the people he trains with, just look for yourself, and if you get the chance attend one of his seminars he holds for the community all over the world.

The bottom line is whether you want to or not you have to get out there and check out some schools or people that train and see if what they have going on is up your alley or not. Figure out what you want in the training, how, what and why. If you can't find it in the mantis that is here then maybe you'll find that training with another school. Styles mean nothing anymore unless you want to be a forms collector and are a purist. Hell even our mantis school had bits of other deals thrown in the mix to help round it out as a fighting system.

Wish I hadn't retired from all the bs or I'd offer to train with you, or at least let you see something that is way different than what you'll see out here mantis content wise... At one point all I wanted was dedicated individuals to train with that had the desire to better themselves with their training, and training was free. But that is a hard thing to come by nowadays I guess.

I left the spotlight frankly because it boils down to being sick and tired of political garbage in the MA world. From moorons challanging me in my own home only to be put in their place leading to really nothing but me looking over my shoulder wondering if some butt hurt cat is going to throw a brick through my car window because I peeled his cap, to internet tigers running their mouths online it just gets old. I hope you guys find the training you need out here and that your search is rewarded with quality MA.

Jake if you make it out to AZ you best be looking me up.

[shaolin_allan]

Shirkers have you checked out Stuart Olson's school in Phoenix?

[shirkers1]

yes like I said, nothing I saw here was close to the training I had in ohio or what I looked for to further my training beyond what I had. The school in question seemed like the mantis was very minimal and basic. Also it was a different style of mantis than I had a background in and it wasn't for me.

Nothing against anyone and their training, it's all about how their training suits me and like I said none of it suited me. All I can say man is for you to go check it out yourself, it may be a perfect fit for you. Just because I or some other cat say they don't like it means squat, you have to check it out for yourself and feel what they have to offer. If it makes sense go with it. We can all recommend who we think has quality stuff, but it boils down to what you think.