Arizona Mantis

[Three Harmonies]

Whats up brother? How is the AZ treating you? Thought you were making it my way sometime? I will certainly call when I head down yonder.
I really appreciate the kind words, but they are wasted here on KFO. Too many trolls, too much silliness. I try to help, and this is the thanks I get. I too have been really turned off by the BS within the CMA community. Sorry to hear it has turned you off so much, but I totally UNDERSTAND!!

No Surrender-
Think as you wish bro. I was trying to offer some help to a cat who was searching. I have to admit it is rather funny that the references you use to prove Eager is not contemp. wushu, are, well........ wushu guys! But hey, to each their own.
As for the "master" title.... again...to each their own. It has to be the most overused, non-meaningful, self en-titled word out there in the martial world. The best people I have ever met with INSISTED I do not use a title with them. Coincidentally some of the worst I have met (no reflection on those in this thread) have INSISTED I use a title such as Sifu/Master/GM etc. I suppose if it helps with his ego and business so be it. The Chinese always laugh when they see a white guy in a Chinese outfit proclaiming "master"-dom! I guess I should too!

Shirkers brings up great points. One guy may hate one teacher, yet that teacher may be a perfect fit for the next. To each their own.

Oh, and it is very, VERY, questionable if Olsen actually learned any Mantis from his teacher. No one ever heard of him training it until after his teacher passed, then stuart came out with a book on Babu tanglang. I will never judge a man I have not seen, but if the book is any indicator...

Jake

[shirkers1]

AZ is great.. I'm playing music again so I'm pretty busy with that, so that is the reason I haven't made my way up north yet. Kind of hard to get out of town when you're playing regularly.

Totally agree with the "master" titles etc point you made.

[Three Harmonies]

Gald to hear things are well my friend.
Cheers
Jake

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Jake, Jake Jake.......

First off I'd like to say that I actually agree with about the master thing...It gets tossed around the martial arts world like a red headed step child and most folks who go by it don't deserve the title and often a total sham.
However...
Joe is last person in the world who would demand or expect anyone to call him master. I am using the term as a matter of respect for him which you don't appear to have. To me he is sifu...lots of people just call him Joe. A humbler person I have yet to meet.

Unless 7star mantis suddenly became A "WUSHU" style then your wrong. Thats it plain and simple.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit you made a mistake.

I too am trying to help this wayward poster find a teacher and you provided them with misinformation based on your experience.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Oh and by the way Kwan Sai Hung a.k.a. the wandering taoist" is hardly a "wushu" guy....

[Yao Sing]

Ok, the youtube clip - nice movement but looked to me like a performance (lacking intent). IMHO it had the earmarks of someone doing the moves without knowing the application.

Believe me I'm intimately familiar with students performing moves they "copied" and don't know what they're actually doing. Again, just my opinion.

Yeah, I got tired of the crap and posturing and totally delusional drivel that passes for discussion here. Also, lost interest in the CMA world in general and even threatened to go back to Yoga.

Jake, you're a bit rough sometimes (yep, I do that myself too) and it's confrontational when you start off that way. Being a straight talker can be both good and bad at times.

But on the other hand you have red flag comments like "you have to train with him for years before he'll let you do it". So what the heck do you train for years while waiting to get "the goods"? Does anyone else see the dishonesty here?

Another red flag - "an advanced level instructor and teaches many different styles". I've yet to hear anyone claim their teacher to be a low or mid level instructor and we all know the saying "jack of all trades, master of none".

So while Jake was a bit harsh in his "introduction" to you guys he does have a point that all of us who've been around CMA for a good number of years are well aware of and tired of seeing and hearing.

Props to you guys to being levelheaded and not escalating this to the usual flame war. You guys are class acts in my book.

[shirkers1]

Actually yes 7 star has become a wushu style.. that is the sad part. There are very few individuals who actually train combat mantis any more. Jakes teacher being one of them, although not 7 star their stuff is very good. Once again, there are individuals on this board.. well used to be on this board who have been around the block a few times and have mucho information that you might be able to learn from. By your profile it says you've only been training for 4 years? Sit back, listen and learn. Instead of verbal sparring maybe you could look into the info that others speak of, you might learn something new. Might save you some money as well, because if you think you are training quality combat mantis here in phoenix you are wrong...

yao sing is on point as well, red flags ALL OVER the place.

live and learn I guess...

[No_SuRReNDeR]

OK shirkers1,
I see your point and appreciate that as I feel it is a valid and rational response.
I am not trying to start a war with your friend Jake,I understand that he is very interested in combat mantis and teachers that teach this.
And in all fairness, Joe is a diverse teacher and our school is not a "mantis" school. His focus as a teacher leans towards northern shaolin styles and systems. Although he does teach Mantis, and many other styles and systems.
I consider myself a traditional martial artist and focus mainly on Mizong Yi. Although I do study and practice other styles.
But I dont disagree with Jake about learning applications and understanding your art as a fighting system. I personally am less concerned with forms and more concerned with learning techniques, tactics and strategies that pretain to my art.

As for the clip on you tube-Thats Shannon,(keep in mind that people are nervous at demos and often screw up their forms and their techniques) and also Shannon isn't very serious about learning Mantis and its applications her main focus is on snake from the Shaolin five animals system although currently she has been working on Nan Chuan.

Now here is the thing Joe doesn't teach forms and neglect techniques. I have NEVER seen him show us a move in a form(obvious stuff excluded)and not go into detail about it's many uses and variations in combat. Usually I wind up being the dummy for these demonstrations so believe me . He does teach applications and techniques as a fighting art. So if I was learning "Mantis " from him ...I firmly believe It would be "quality"
I cant imaging that you do kung fu in Phoenix and don't know or haven't met Joseph Eagar . I encourage you to Please come by our class and jump in with us whenever you can I would be very interested in meeting you.

http://www.eagarwushu.co.nr/

-My name is Jason - Btw

[shirkers1]

Jake can come across crass, but hell so can I.. in the end both of us are pretty laid back individuals and easy to get along with. But with that said Jake has been around the block, trained with many MA'st around the world and has a good base to decide what is good and what isn't.

I've visited the school a while back and like I said, and I'm not to put anyone down. But compared to the training I was used to it wasn't for me. I stand by the statement that unless there is some cat training out of his house somewhere that I don't know about there are no quality "combat" mantis schools here. Time and money is hard to come by nowadays so the training has to be worth it.

[mantid1]

I dont think that ONLY being around for four years should mean anything....as far as the fighting goes that is.

I think the old school guys who pretend that you need to be around for over four years before you have the "goods" are as misleading as the wushu guys.

If a student seriously wants to learn to fight and is willing to train hard there is no reason that they should not be able to handle themselves in a self defense situation or full contact sparring within the first three to four months.

A student should be to be a fairly high level of fighting before the end of their first year of training. If they cant they are not trying hard enough, the insturctor isnt giving them the tools they need or they are not genetically cut out for it.

I dont have a problem with the old school arts...in fact I like them and prefer them now that im old. But, the old school people have to be as honest with themselves as the wushu guys should be. If your students arent fighting they are learning an art...not a method of fighting.

[shirkers1]

I dont think that ONLY being around for four years should mean anything....as far as the fighting goes that is.

I think the old school guys who pretend that you need to be around for over four years before you have the "goods" are as misleading as the wushu guys.

If a student seriously wants to learn to fight and is willing to train hard there is no reason that they should not be able to handle themselves in a self defense situation or full contact sparring within the first three to four months.

A student should be to be a fairly high level of fighting before the end of their first year of training. If they cant they are not trying hard enough, the insturctor isnt giving them the tools they need or they are not genetically cut out for it.

I dont have a problem with the old school arts...in fact I like them and prefer them now that im old. But, the old school people have to be as honest with themselves as the wushu guys should be. If your students arent fighting they are learning an art...not a method of fighting.

no surrender was questioning Jakes knowledge on his teacher here in phoenix, political awareness, what is "real" mantis, etc. That is where the 4 years comes in to play. The longer you're in this game the more you are witness to the garbage that happens in the MA world, or traditional MA world that is. Part of which is what you state about "old school people"...

Agree with your comment on fighting and old school teachers being honest with themselves.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

"no surrender was questioning Jakes knowledge on his teacher here in phoenix, political awareness, what is "real" mantis, etc. That is where the 4 years comes in to play. The longer you're in this game the more you are witness to the garbage that happens in the MA world, or traditional MA world that is. Part of which is what you state about "old school people"...

Actually I really don't doubt or question Jake as a martial artist. I know he's been around and trained with many amazing martial artists and yeah 4 years is not a lifetime I wish I found my love for CMA sooner.I think I sorta understand Jakes perspective a bit more now that we've had this debate. However even the wisest man can make a mistake now and then and it is my belief that when it comes to his opinion about what Joe teaches and knows, he has made a mistake. On this point I think We need to just agree to disagree.

Also heres the thing I dont get so please explain...

"Wushu" mantis as in...the sport form of mantis -(I am sick of the word Wushu being used to represent the sport forms btw.) Had to have been created by mantis practitioners then modified to showcase athletic abilities of the performer.
Now obviously most of the movements are still martial in nature so how does that make them invalid?....
It's not like the "wushu" longfist which has blatantly non martial techniques like that back leg strecth over the head thing....or landing in a splits after a jumping cresent kick.

I realize that the wushu forms may mean the practitioner is NOT doing all of the other fundamental traditional trainig...like chi gung sets, strength training and sparring but does that somehow mean the moves and techniques are no longer martial?
I am not being sarcastic i really don't understand why "wushu" Mantis is a derogatory term in this regard.

[Three Harmonies]

Wow! I am popular these days
Look, in the end everyone can make their own decision. NS - you are really, REALLY, concerned with getting something here, so wha is it? An apology? I will not apologize for my EXPERIENCE. My experience with Joe Eager was obviously different than yours. I respect that, and frankly am happy with that. You want to prove me wrong (which again, how is an experience wrong??), but you do so by stating that Joes teachers are not wushu (a whole different argument unto itself). Yet none of the Mantis teachers you list are traditional stylists under anyone doing traditional Mantis. That is even beside the point, I digress....
Anyhoo.... Anyone with any common sense will go, check out a class, and see for themselves what they like. No one should take my word, Shirkers, or yours on this board. Experience is the best way. That being said, Shirkers and my experiences were not what we consider traditional, combatively trained mantis. You cannot discount our experiences. Perhaps Joe did not show us the "real" deal. I don't know. Don't care anymore.
I never meant to derail, nor put down anyone. I was sharing my experience. Like Shirkers mentioned I have had the privlege to train with many, many, top teachers in the arts over the last 17 years. Many are amazingly nice, good, top quality people. Many are not. A few should not be allowed around anyone else. I will continue to share my opinions, experiences, and thoughts as they are asked for (and when they are not as well). I am not mean, nor care to hurt anyone. But I am tired, so frickin' tired, of the BS in martial arts in general, but especially what is common place in CMA! The arts deserve better than what they are getting from the people who supposedly love them dearly! I am going to do my small, little part to help clean up the image and represent true Chinese Martial Arts as they have been taught to me.
Sorry if you do not like it, but that is me. I wear my heart on my sleeve, and tell things the way they are. IMO we need more people like that in this world, and running this country. ***** footing around has done nothing for the human race, let alone the male species. Have some balls guys, the majority of us are males here, HTFU!

Cheers
Jake

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Look ,
I agree with you 100% about experience. People should judge for themselves. Never believe something just because someone says it's so, be assertive and check into it yourself. I know you don't have anything against Joe I read djectra's first thread and you were the one who brought him up and you mentioned he was a
nice man. I think we are all arguing over symantics here and it's really pointless.

I know you have an extensive history of Mantis and clearly you have more experience and knowledge on the subject than me. As I have stated before I am mainly focused on MizongYi and Northern Shaolin styles.-


I guess what I don't understand about this whole mess is what the major differences are between the sport Mantis and traditional"combat"Mantis and how the techniques very so much since both are based on the same principles.

Jake could you please explain these difference to me? -

I really want to know what your experience is with both and would like to know
how they differ and how they are the same.

Perhaps we can start a new thread and discuss Wushu vs Traditional Mantis.

I am sorry if I have been a jerk with my responses to you, but I love and respect my Sifu and I get defensive for obvious reasons. I offer an appology to you.

[Three Harmonies]

No worries bro.

Basically you have two schools... those who train realistically (offer various levels of non-cooperative sparring, grappling, etc.), and those who practice lots of forms, rarely hit anything, have no grappling practice, and who give BS excuses like "Our style is too dangerous to practice on humans...." when asked if they want to spar.
So I do not care to classify something by a title, but rather offer the simplistic answer of those who practice/train realistically, those who do not. Not to say all schools don't have there place. Surely they do. I just get frustrated when people (teachers) mis-represent themselves, the art, and their students! If someone does not teach combatives in his school that is fine, but don't dare tell your students BS stories like "It will naturally come out in a real fight from the form" "Only use your techniques if your life is in danger because they are too deadly" etc. etc. (both of which I have heard come out of the mouths of very prominent teachers!!). That is a dis-service to the community at large, the art as a whole, and the student individual!

Hope that helps.
Cheers
Jake