1 in very 100 adults is in jail

[bakxierboxer]

Well since you dont seem to even know the definition of propaganda, here ya go:

the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

You're just proving me right, since your initial use of it assumed that it was always a NEGATIVE type of "info".

I cant think for myself....

If you say so.

and say the moon is made of cheese, yet it doesnt make it so.

Seemingly, nothing you say does that.... at least insofar as what you've posted in this thread.

And while on that note, how is it we know this? Why...its scientific data, and lets see, if I gather a sample of moon rock today, will it still not be made of cheese tomorrow? Ah...wait yes it will because it is a study that can be replicated.

That was always supposed to be "green cheese", but any fool (with working eyes) can see it isn't green.... so, most folks just chalked that up to a kiddie tale.
You, OTOH, needed "proof"?

Originally Posted by zapruder_bjj View Post
... because there is no studies...
"... because there ARE no studies..."

There you go grasp at them typo straws since you have no facts to base your argument.

???
Seems to me you're acknowledging your mistake as a "fact"......

That is why I spoke about propaganda earlier, because blatant refusal to hear the evidence (the FDA refusing to hear the evidence brought to them by the AMA)

... and you actually think that the AMA is truthful/selfless and has no axe to grind?

So I am confused the AMA disseminates propaganda but the government doesnt?

I think that it would be a very unusual organization that didn't use:
"The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause." (aka "their" cause)
aka: "propaganda"

... and using studies that can not be reproduced multiple times (ie good science)...

Or possibly repetitive drudgework.

NO!! This is called good science. A hypothesis may not become theory until it is shown to be true...and how is that by replicating the results.

OTOH, a "theory" is still not a "law".....

It is strange to watch a person cling to their ideas in the face of facts, cuz gol darnit you knows the real truth about the world, dont have to look at the real world to know about it

I think you need to "make allowances" for those who choose to look (and think) for themselves.

[zapruder_bjj]

I can hear you now, with fingers jammed in ears LALALALA LALALA LALA LALALALA!!!!!

[bakxierboxer]

I can hear you now, with fingers jammed in ears LALALALA LALALA LALA LALALALA!!!!!

You hear funny.
The only thing you're likely to hear like that is "the sound of the ocean" "roaring in your ears"... no doubt accentuated by the echo from the vast emptiness between those same ears.
This very emptiness may well have been caused by sticking all those well-lubricated thingies through there.

OTOH, this seems to be "getting old"....maybe we should stop it?

[1bad65]

Maybe instead of trying to be witty you actually present evidence baking up your claims.

[bakxierboxer]

Maybe instead of trying to be witty you actually present evidence baking up your claims.

WHAT!!!??
That's no fun at all!

[Drake]

let's see now, we went from cave people, to neolithic people, to the bronze age, to the iron age, to the industrial age, to the nuclear age and now we sit at the edge again of progress and understanding.

I don't think we are that great of a failure to ourselves. I do believe there are a great deal of us who are unwilling to do much about anything and are satisfied to live our lives out and that's that.

Then there are some of us who push forward, always claiming new ground of understanding and knowing.

So, because of this more or less historical record of success that shows that aggressive iron hand type rulers rise and fall and collapse in the period of their life time, then I would say that this thinking is the backwards kind and not the kind that wants people as a whole to work together towards a better tomorrow.

Having said that, yes we will make mistakes, but how are we to learn. For instance, democracy today has taken a step backwards and right now doesn't look like much more than a dictatorship fo the majority. At least in the G8 countries that 's how it is at the moment. This is a flaw and is dangerous. It is important to not let aristocratic types take contreol of governments or to set in place rules of governance that destroy the foundations and good stuff of democracy.

in my opinion there is a need for change in the implementation of democracy. and it has to be a step to previous models and not a continuance of what there is now.

From that same historical perspective, then you'll also admit that most of our progress has been through war and conquering. The USA sits on what used to be someone else's home, people are fighting in the middle east about who oppressed who, and the very message board we argue on was the end result of a military project. Industrial modernization to fight the German war machine, nuclear research in order to best the Russians, countries forcibly brought into compliance by the European expansionists, and even modern aviation was all brought about by the art of war and conquering. All peace ever got anyone was a one way ticket to being on the short end of that stick (See Tibet, Native Americans, "neutral" WWII nations, etc).

So give me the story of peace and harmony all you like, but the fact is, we got to where we are by way of spear, sword, and ridiculously gigantic bombs.

[greendragon]

A HUGE percentage of the incarcerated are in for drug offenses. Why pay their room and board ? If we legalize all drugs, it takes the big profit out of manufacturing and distributing them, addicts won't need to commit crime to pay the high prices. The "war on drugs" can quit and save billions. The thrill of forbidden fruit will be gone for kids who will then see it as a lame sickness. It is corrupt government that makes money from illegal drugs. All those fields of opium poppies in Afghanistan keeping money flowing to the Taliban, why don't we napalm those fields ? The government flooded the ghettos with cheap heroin in the sixties to control the civil rights protests like they gave blankets loaded with small pox to the indians a hundred years before that. People at the top are making obscene money on illegal drugs. Legalize them and we throw a wrench in the system and drug use shrinks to a fraction of what is is today. Prison population goes down and those people can return to being productive. Many law enforcement folks take this view.

[Drake]

A HUGE percentage of the incarcerated are in for drug offenses. Why pay their room and board ? If we legalize all drugs, it takes the big profit out of manufacturing and distributing them, addicts won't need to commit crime to pay the high prices. The "war on drugs" can quit and save billions. The thrill of forbidden fruit will be gone for kids who will then see it as a lame sickness. It is corrupt government that makes money from illegal drugs. All those fields of opium poppies in Afghanistan keeping money flowing to the Taliban, why don't we napalm those fields ? The government flooded the ghettos with cheap heroin in the sixties to control the civil rights protests like they gave blankets loaded with small pox to the indians a hundred years before that. People at the top are making obscene money on illegal drugs. Legalize them and we throw a wrench in the system and drug use shrinks to a fraction of what is is today. Prison population goes down and those people can return to being productive. Many law enforcement folks take this view.

Please show me a single shred of credible evidence that the government intentionally flooded poor areas with heroin. Legalizing drugs to fix the prison system is like smashing the oven so you don't have to bake. Why not legalize everything that is filling up the prisons, using that logic? We can't napalm opium farmers in Afghanistan, BTW. They are a sovereign nation and we need their permission, which, suffice to say, will not be granted.

Secondly, drugs aren't a problem just because kids are being rebellious. Please inform yourself on these things before making outlandish suggestions simply for the sake of making yourself be heard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please show me a single shred of credible evidence that the government intentionally flooded poor areas with heroin. Legalizing drugs to fix the prison system is like smashing the oven so you don't have to bake. Why not legalize everything that is filling up the prisons, using that logic? We can't napalm opium farmers in Afghanistan, BTW. They are a sovereign nation and we need their permission, which, suffice to say, will not be granted.

Secondly, drugs aren't a problem just because kids are being rebellious. Please inform yourself on these things before making outlandish suggestions simply for the sake of making yourself be heard.

I doubt the reason that Opium fields are NOT bombed is because Afghanistan is an sovereign country and "permission" is needed.
We have bombed many things in many places without permission.

[Drake]

I doubt the reason that Opium fields are NOT bombed is because Afghanistan is an sovereign country and "permission" is needed.
We have bombed many things in many places without permission.

Not allies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not allies.

Ah, so they were our allies BEFORE we went into the 'Stan?

[Drake]

Ah, so they were our allies BEFORE we went into the 'Stan?

The country was being run by murderous lunatics. We came in as a response to an attack, and now they have a democratic government in place. Now we follow their rules.

[David Jamieson]

The country was being run by murderous lunatics. We came in as a response to an attack, and now they have a democratic government in place. Now we follow their rules.

Drake- nothing personal, but your assessment of Afghanistan is entirely off track. It is an always has been the worlds largest provider of opium. This is both for legal and illegal use. IE: all morphine, valium, and opiate based drugs in general are derived from opium which is first manufactured into heroin, then morphine then all the other things which are then processed by big pharma and sold to hospitals and governments all over the world.

what afghanistan has is oil pipeline to service both russian and iraqi oil fields. this is very important and must be guarded and maintained. This is the #1 reason why afghanistan matters. Secondly, when the Taliban took power, they wiped out the opium crop. Since they have been scattered, the trade is back up and running at levels even higher than before it's collapse at the hands of the taliban.

so while we were all focusing on how obscure muslim fundamentalist groups and laws played out, the background was really what the haps was.

Afghanistan has been in a state of constant war for longer than many of its citizens have even been alive. With the Soviets being in there, then civil war and now the Canadians, Brits, Americans and a few other greeting card countries are holding up the protectionism going on there.

Ultimately, The USA and G8 or Nato in general has to control the oil and drugs of teh region because that's where the money is and it is money that fuels war. If you control the flow of money, you control any and all conflict which may occur. If you control access to things like wealth and armaments, then you control the region. Period. that's how it works and don't let anyone tell you different.

people arguing democracy on a marble floor is a luxury afforded to us by the blood of soldiers. Don'tr get caught up in one world one love thinking, it doesn't exist, but it can be worked towards. What is need is someone who is essentially uncorruptible, producing an ideology that is palatable by th greatest portion of the population and that exudes and offers lasting peace and has the hand to stay any trouble at the door before it enters the society or affects it or effects it.

strip away the chit chat and media obfuscation, read a history book or two and that's all your left with. really.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The country was being run by murderous lunatics. We came in as a response to an attack, and now they have a democratic government in place. Now we follow their rules.

Murderous lunatics we "put" in there ...
Point being, if we wanted to wipe out any drug fields we could have done along time ago.
As for democratic governments, well...there's democracy and then there is democracy, just because a government was democractically elected doesn't mean it is recognized nor does it mean they can tell "us" what to do.
As we well know from recent examples in the middle east.

That said, the war of drugs is a valid one, even if it is not being fought the best way possible.

[Drake]

Drake- nothing personal, but your assessment of Afghanistan is entirely off track. It is an always has been the worlds largest provider of opium. This is both for legal and illegal use. IE: all morphine, valium, and opiate based drugs in general are derived from opium which is first manufactured into heroin, then morphine then all the other things which are then processed by big pharma and sold to hospitals and governments all over the world.

I never said otherwise.

what afghanistan has is oil pipeline to service both russian and iraqi oil fields. this is very important and must be guarded and maintained. This is the #1 reason why afghanistan matters. Secondly, when the Taliban took power, they wiped out the opium crop. Since they have been scattered, the trade is back up and running at levels even higher than before it's collapse at the hands of the taliban.

Never contradicted that statement either.

so while we were all focusing on how obscure muslim fundamentalist groups and laws played out, the background was really what the haps was.

Our troops have been working on the opium issue for years, trying to motivate farmers to switch to other profitable, legal options, such as silk.

Afghanistan has been in a state of constant war for longer than many of its citizens have even been alive. With the Soviets being in there, then civil war and now the Canadians, Brits, Americans and a few other greeting card countries are holding up the protectionism going on there.

Actually, they've been fighting for hundreds of years.

Ultimately, The USA and G8 or Nato in general has to control the oil and drugs of teh region because that's where the money is and it is money that fuels war. If you control the flow of money, you control any and all conflict which may occur. If you control access to things like wealth and armaments, then you control the region. Period. that's how it works and don't let anyone tell you different.

We know this already.

people arguing democracy on a marble floor is a luxury afforded to us by the blood of soldiers. Don'tr get caught up in one world one love thinking, it doesn't exist, but it can be worked towards. What is need is someone who is essentially uncorruptible, producing an ideology that is palatable by th greatest portion of the population and that exudes and offers lasting peace and has the hand to stay any trouble at the door before it enters the society or affects it or effects it.

strip away the chit chat and media obfuscation, read a history book or two and that's all your left with. really.

I argue democracy from a foxhole, so my perspective is different than yours. You'll never get a corruption-free world, so we can drop that idea right now. But we will work towards getting the best we can.