Wing Chun Knife?

[KPM]

I like to keep things practical. The traditional Wing Chun weapons are excellent for developing certain attributes and have some cross-over value that can be applied to “environmental” weapons. But they are out-of-date as modern weapons. In my opinion, the most practical “modern” weapon available to us is the tactical folding knife. They are legal to carry in most states in the US and can be kept readily at hand clipped in a pocket. They also are a tool that can be used for any kind of cutting task. And despite what many think, they do not have to be used in a “deadly” fashion.

I have seen and trained in several different systems for using the knife. In my experience, the one that is the best fit with Wing Chun skills is known as the “Drawpoint” method. This system was developed by James A. Keating as his “tactical” adaptation of methods from Pekitia Tirsia Kali. Mr. Keating is an American Icon in the knife industry. He first brought his Drawpoint system to the attention of the public through a video in 1993. Since then other individuals such as Michael Janich and Pete Kautz have developed the system further and in their own ways. Michael Janich as produced an excellent instructional video series of his own for Paladin Press that highlights this method.

The Drawpoint system uses the knife in a reverse grip. This does sacrifice some reach, but then Wing Chun guys are used to being “up close and personal.” But holding the knife in a reverse grip allows one to hook and redirect just like doing a Huen Sao action. Drawpoint emphasizes deploying the knife quickly in a self defense situation. It is not a “dueling” method. The core drill is called “rotary picking” or “trap and roll” and bears a strong resemblance to the Wing Chun Pak Da drill. Another key drill in the system is called “cover and slash.” This drill is essentially Chi Sao with knives and is a lot of fun to practice!

Another advantage of this particular method is that it is easily adapted to any object that is between 5 and 8 inches long that can be held in the hand protruding from the bottom of the fist. This could be a pen or pencil, a small flashlight, a beer bottle, a "Kubotan" or a "pocket stick."

There are several ways to apply Wing Chun motions and concepts to the Drawpoint system. I'm currently working on getting a webpage up and plan to have more of my thoughts and examples there.

Has anyone else played with applying WCK to the use of a tactical folder?

[r4cy]

I don't know about Drawpoint, but for the rest I completely agree. Wing Chun is famous for being practical, and tho Wing Chun traditional weapons help your training in certain ways, there is no way to convince me I train the WC knives or the pole to fight w/ them. Definetly the eskrima or kali systems are a great way to complement WC, and we should not be scared of making the crossover when everybody knows that WC acquired the weapons from another systems in the beginning. After all knowledge is universal. We can take a modern knife and apply it to the concepts w/no problem. I think the fathers would have done the same and the only reason we don't have pocket knives hanging on our walls is because it didn't make sense fighting a broadsword with a pocket knife on those times hehehe, just as it doesn't make sense walking around with WC knives on my back today.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I like to keep things practical. The traditional Wing Chun weapons are excellent for developing certain attributes and have some cross-over value that can be applied to “environmental” weapons. But they are out-of-date as modern weapons." (KPM)


***ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO I started working with two polycarbonate tonfas (exactly what the police here in NYC were using at the time)...and adapted the Butterflly Sword technques to the tonfa - if you can imagine that. For example,with one tonfa in each hand, the "tips" of the tonfa could be used for a stabbing/thrusting motion or the shafts of the tonfa can be used for a "clubbing/chopping" motion.

And the vertical handles...as long as you hide your thumbs (it took awhile to work this out) could actually be a place (where the vertical handles met the shaft) - be a place where you can catch a baseball bat that's being swung at you. (The polycarbonate is exceptionally strong)....followed by hits to the arms/hands....body/head/legs.

The possibilities are virtually endless - against knives, sticks, long poles being thrust at you, etc.

The biggest adaption is the fact that there is no guard for your fingers - but it can be worked out.

[Phil Redmond]

You don't have to carry BJD around with you to use the principles of the Do. WC knives can be transposed to single or double stick, etc., or even single knife whether folded or fixed blade. There are also plenty of one knife drills in WC.

[Black Jack II]

Having attended a Riddle of Steel, I can say Mr. Keating is bloody good, one of those rare, old world characters that you tend to only find in faded Joe R. Lansdale novels.

He was way ahead of the game with his drawpoint series, which is just his take on the Pekiti-Tirsia methods of Pikal knife work. Though I tend to frown at some of his black helicopter esque conspiracy theory views, his martial work is beyond first rate and was also a forerunner on the Occidental fighting arts.

For my taste though I believe the best format of good knife work out there in the market now is done by the Shivwork group. In specific there work in the extreme close combat range with the Pikal, point down-edge in method of short knife fighting.

The combination of forward drive, economy of motion, and gross motor based movements are excellent.

www.shivworks.com

Wing Chun could benefit well from the Pikal method, which again is a point down-edge in method of knife fighting often in the reverse grip position. With some psychological "tweaking" to understand that the method is made to puncture and rip instead of trap and hit, it may be the best method around for Wing Chun.

My core knife self defense work is specifically Pikal based, its simple and contextual to what I need to do.

[Tom Kagan]

IBut they are out-of-date as modern weapons.

They were out of date even for the era when they were developed originally.

[anerlich]

My instructor teaches the Hock Hochheim system.

I've recently been investigating Ray Floro's system www.florofighting.com - very interesting. The free vids there are food for thought. You can cause a nasty wound with a credit card.

With regard to practicality in modern times, the walking cane and mini-maglite kubotan are two of very few weapons you can carry through airport security.

It's also important to realise that many WC techniques which work against bare hands will earn you a trip to hospital or worse if you try them as is against someone with a blade and moderate skill.

[KPM]

It's also important to realise that many WC techniques which work against bare hands will earn you a trip to hospital or worse if you try them as is against someone with a blade and moderate skill.

That's an excellent point Andrew! I've heard it said more than once that the best way to learn how to defend against a knife is to learn how to use a knife! If you become relatively proficient with its use, you quickly come to the realization that most "self-defense against a knife attack" moves taught are NOT going to work.

[KPM]

For my taste though I believe the best format of good knife work out there in the market now is done by the Shivwork group. In specific there work in the extreme close combat range with the Pikal, point down-edge in method of short knife fighting.

---Thanks for the link! I don't know anything about the "Shivworks" approach. But those videos on the website are essentially the same as Keating's Drawpoint method. And I would hope that anyone with a good WCK background would look at the "application" video and see some WCK biomechanics there. I prefer the edge out grip. One of the applications you can do with this grip essentially comes from the 2nd section of the SNT form. The double Lan Sao to double Fak Sao back to double Lan Sao motion can be adapted to the knife as a Pak inward and slash inward as the arms come together to deflect and slash the attacker's incoming limb followed by a hooking back to control motion with the knife as the arms separate and the other hand clears....to a Pak inward to trap the arm as the knife slashes across the biceps, pecs, throat, face, etc. Its a simple arms together, arms apart, arms together motion that happens very rapidly and smoothly. But it requires an edge out grip.


Wing Chun could benefit well from the Pikal method, which again is a point down-edge in method of knife fighting often in the reverse grip position. With some psychological "tweaking" to understand that the method is made to puncture and rip instead of trap and hit, it may be the best method around for Wing Chun.

---I agree with the "puncture and rip" mentality, but don't think that it is mutually exclusive to a "trap and hit" mentality. In the Drawpoint method one proceeds that knife jab shown in the shivworks video with a Pak Sao motion that would clear the attacker's arm or "trap" before landing your own "puncture" or "hit." Wing Chun likes to have both hands on the attacker for control when "up close and personal." There's no reason why this can't be done with a knife held in one of the hands.

My core knife self defense work is specifically Pikal based, its simple and contextual to what I need to do.

---I agree! Its good stuff with lots of simple application and lots of good WCK "cross over." Thanks for the post.

[rogue]

You can cause a nasty wound with a credit card.

That's old hat. Works with brand new credit cards but older ones will lose their edge, but a nail file should bring it back. But now you have a weapon with your name on it and the other guys blood.

So far I've yet to meet someone who has had a dueling kind of knife fight so I'm not sure what the point of the training of some of these systems is.

[Black Jack II]

So far I've yet to meet someone who has had a dueling kind of knife fight so I'm not sure what the point of the training of some of these systems is

.

Almost nill, that is why I don't work with mano vrs mano knife vrs knife systems, I find the combative viewpoint methods are much more in line with reality and self preservation.

[LoneTiger108]

Has anyone else played with applying WCK to the use of a tactical folder?

I don't particularly want to rant about the effectiveness of a form like the BJD here, as I have little knowedge of it, but I can say 'yes' I have dabbled in knife defense/attack strategies.

Actually the reverse grip you mentioned is known to me as a kind of 'sleeve knife' tactic. Something I've been chastised for by other families who do not turn or 'flip' the blade against the forearm.

I'll have a look at some Drawpoint methods if you recommend a site, and see if anything is similar...

[Black Jack II]

I'll have a look at some Drawpoint methods if you recommend a site, and see if anything is similar..

www.shivworks.com

http://www.jamesakeating.com/instructional2.html

www.reknives.com

Pikal is a FMA method, in Visayan terms it means to "rip". The drawpoint or shivwork methods are stripped down Pikal for a westerner looking for life saving skills.

Let's be clear about one thing, Pikal is not a duelistic method, its a assaultive method, and the training psychology behind that differs greatly.

It's a weapon-side forward approach that is based on the hydro-thrust, by that I want you to think of the blade like a sewing machine, by the way the blade is held it uses a hook and clear instinctive reaction to shear an interrupted thrust line.

As for WCK knife methods, don't even bother. Go with a method that has its backing in the small cqc blade arts, no reason to try and reinvent the wheel, when other culture's have already spilled the blood.

[KPM]

Let's be clear about one thing, Pikal is not a duelistic method, its a assaultive method, and the training psychology behind that differs greatly.

It's a weapon-side forward approach that is based on the hydro-thrust, by that I want you to think of blade like a sewing machine, by the way the blade is held it uses a hook and clear instinctive reaction to shear an interrupted thrust line.

As for WCK knife methods, don't even bother. Go with a method that has its backing in the small cqc blade arts, no reason to try and reinvent the wheel, when other culture's have already spilled the blood.

Hey Blackjack!

I agree with each of your points above. As far as the last point....while I do agree that there is no need to "reinvent the wheel" when there are perfectly good systems already in existence, I do think certain methods can be "adapted" somewhat to fit with what someone is already doing. I think people that knew what they were seeing would notice the WCK influence in the way I perform the Drawpoint method. Same thing with using sticks. I find the Serrada system provides the best "fit" for me with WCK and has the most overlay with some of the BJD methods. But if you saw me doing it, Serrrada guys would say..."that's not really Serrada" and WCK guys would say "that's not really BJD methods."

So bottom line for me....No...don't start from scratch and try to "reinvent the wheel". Look around for something that seems pretty close to WCK methods and then adapt it to suit you.

[Liddel]

So bottom line for me....No...don't start from scratch and try to "reinvent the wheel". Look around for something that seems pretty close to WCK methods and then adapt it to suit you.

Interesting some P'sOV here. I like the above, adaptation is you using the art not the other way around.

I dont see BJD relating to knife work myself, i can see some cross over but its small compared to what will get you hurt using a knife.

The BJD to me are swords not knives and have distance(range) timing and angling differences IMO. The BJD can deal with many weapons due to the design of the handle, trapping weapons and protecting your grip with the guard is which is not present with any knife ive seen.... so some obvious points to adress if you do want to cross over techs....

Obviously i think you can crossover some stuff, but why not stick with a proven knife method ?

JMO

DREW