Defence Against Front Tackles

[James O]

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

[unkokusai]

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Yeah, if someone wants to stand 7 feet away from you and throw their head into the floor right at your feet that should work just swell.

If that kid knew how to shoot an actual double, that old duffer would have been on his ass in a heartbeat.

[Egg fu young]

sprawl when you have to.....but maintain distance if you can. Knees and uppercuts are effective when a person has their head down comming in but then of course you didnt sprawl or keep your distance

[sanjuro_ronin]

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

If you think that a well training BJJ fighter will tackle you by "charging straight " then perhaps you should try to train with a few and see for yourself.

[James O]

Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you. I suppose I used the words 'charging straight' to emphasize their aggressive nature.
Anyway, nobody has expressed any counter tactics or techniques for this attack except to knee them which surely would send you to ground since you would then be on only 1 leg, or to uppercut them in the face which probably wouldn't stop them taking hold on you and bringing you to the ground.

If you think that a well training BJJ fighter will tackle you by "charging straight " then perhaps you should try to train with a few and see for yourself.

[SAAMAG]

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.

The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

See what works for YOU, and stick with it. Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

Good luck!

[Vajramusti]

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.
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((You are entitled to your opinion-based on what you know))

joy chaudhuri

[James O]

The whole reason I posted this in the first place was to see what tactics or techniques people may have for a front takedown. Never did I say that it must follow Wing Chun doctrine.
I was then going to assess and experiment with what others had shared until I had something that worked effectively for me.

So far, noone has helped me at all.

[unkokusai]

Well, the level of ignorance you have expressed so far on the subject can really be off-putting but:






SPRAWL





Start with that and come back when you are ready for more.

[James O]

Well, the level of ignorance you have expressed so far on the subject can really be off-putting but:






SPRAWL





Start with that and come back when you are ready for more.

Have I done something to personally offend you, or are you usually this rude ?

[SAAMAG]

No one is being rude...and people have already mentioned the correct method of defense.

Tell you what...email Joy. Apparently he's got some secret technique that's been passed down since the wing chun was created that is a sure fire winner against the double leg takedown. So far I've seen no wing chun person that could stop one. Not one. If they do...it won't be a wing chun technique.

Maybe you can get Joy to post up a vid of a skilled fighter trying to take him down and Joy defending it successfully. Fat chance though. No pun intended.

[unkokusai]

Have I done something to personally offend you, or are you usually this rude ?

I'm usually kind of rude, to be honest.

[Mr Punch]

LMAO, it's true, he is.

He's right, though.

Furthermore, when people are trying to point you in the right direction, you come back with nonsense like

Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you.

straight from the Uncle Ned school of rabbit shooting. Nobody 'charges straight at you' and most grapplers can drop a double leg on you from well within your comfort range as quick as most chunners can find a lop sao.

As people have said, generally the best answer is sprawl. If you're lucky and you are fighting a head-down-charge scrub, a step back, uppercut/knee/box to the ears may just work. It helps if they're drunk. Either way, you need to practice it against someone who knows what they're doing.

Incidentally, in relation to chun, Van is completely correct: there didn't appear to be any kind of shot around when wing chun was developed, and there aren't many in the history of kung fu (I'm being generous - I haven't seen evidence of any but I suppose there may be), so wing chun doesn't have an answer. There may be retrofitted versions:

1) I know there are elements of biu jee and its forerunners that I've found can help some people to understand the dynamics of a sprawl, but in general its like reinventing the wheel and deciding that square is better. Check out an art that specializes in it.

2) 'Footwork footwork footwork' is the mantra from wing chun guys 'in the know', along with 'distancing distancing distancing', 'angles angles angles' etc etc etc... may as well be the diamond sutra or all the good it'll do you against a fast committed wrestler/JJka. Save that one for the scrubs.

[tattooedmonk]

No one is being rude...and people have already mentioned the correct method of defense.

Tell you what...email Joy. Apparently he's got some secret technique that's been passed down since the wing chun was created that is a sure fire winner against the double leg takedown. So far I've seen no wing chun person that could stop one. Not one. If they do...it won't be a wing chun technique.

Maybe you can get Joy to post up a vid of a skilled fighter trying to take him down and Joy defending it successfully. Fat chance though. No pun intended.

And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??

NO wing chun practitioner EVER can defend against a takedown using WC??

I bet you believe that the best fighters in the world are in WEC and UFC and that none of them can be beaten by someone outside of thoses organizations, right??

And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??

[tattooedmonk]

I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really. To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid. If any of you took the CMA that you were taught and used them to their fullest potential you would find that there are plenty of answers to the questions that might be asked. But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding. You compartmentalize everything that has been taught to you and do not think of it as a live , moving , continuous and evolving. You were taught it one way you only use it one way.

Ever since it became outlawed , demilitarized ( lacking martial intent and application)and then a business, CMA / TMA have not taught the full and complete scope of their respective arts. I think alot can be learned from ,like the fact that all martial arts at one time were like it. You can not reinvent the wheel . All the moves have been done before.

CMA has always been an MMA.

At one time Shuai Jiao /Chiao li / etc. had kicking / punching/ throwing and grappling. Notice that the grappling is after the throwing?? To me this is an indication that Chin Na can be done on the ground after the person has been taken down. I have never heard , except from MMA guys and CMa guys who only learned CMA on a superficial level, that Chin Na is only used standing up and that there are no strategies for groundfighting ( grappling/ striking).

Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??

I was taught CMA groundfighting over 17 years ago.