Defence Against Front Tackles

[James O]

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

[unkokusai]

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Yeah, if someone wants to stand 7 feet away from you and throw their head into the floor right at your feet that should work just swell.

If that kid knew how to shoot an actual double, that old duffer would have been on his ass in a heartbeat.

[Egg fu young]

sprawl when you have to.....but maintain distance if you can. Knees and uppercuts are effective when a person has their head down comming in but then of course you didnt sprawl or keep your distance

[sanjuro_ronin]

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

If you think that a well training BJJ fighter will tackle you by "charging straight " then perhaps you should try to train with a few and see for yourself.

[James O]

Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you. I suppose I used the words 'charging straight' to emphasize their aggressive nature.
Anyway, nobody has expressed any counter tactics or techniques for this attack except to knee them which surely would send you to ground since you would then be on only 1 leg, or to uppercut them in the face which probably wouldn't stop them taking hold on you and bringing you to the ground.

If you think that a well training BJJ fighter will tackle you by "charging straight " then perhaps you should try to train with a few and see for yourself.

[SAAMAG]

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.

The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

See what works for YOU, and stick with it. Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

Good luck!

[Vajramusti]

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.
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((You are entitled to your opinion-based on what you know))

joy chaudhuri

[James O]

The whole reason I posted this in the first place was to see what tactics or techniques people may have for a front takedown. Never did I say that it must follow Wing Chun doctrine.
I was then going to assess and experiment with what others had shared until I had something that worked effectively for me.

So far, noone has helped me at all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you. I suppose I used the words 'charging straight' to emphasize their aggressive nature.
Anyway, nobody has expressed any counter tactics or techniques for this attack except to knee them which surely would send you to ground since you would then be on only 1 leg, or to uppercut them in the face which probably wouldn't stop them taking hold on you and bringing you to the ground.

I think that if you really want to have the answer to a well done take down attempt ( not the actual take down, that is a different thing), you need to train with guys that are excellent at take downs, they will open your eyes to the numerous ways they can take you down and from all different ranges and angles, you then take that info and see how to best use it in your system of H2H.
The sprawl is a great place to start because it not only takes your opponents targets away, it put you in a superiour position to launch a counter-attack(s).
If you have issues dealing with the Jab, you train with boxers, issues dealing with the low round kick or strikes in the clinch, you train with MT guys.

Whenever you want to focus on dealing with a specialized skill set, like a take down, train with people that specialize in it.

[James O]

That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing though, and this is very important, training with people well trained in a specific skill set is NOT the same as training with people in your own school or gym that THINK they can do that skill set.
EX:
I took a Shuai Chaio guy to a judo class once and he was thrown around like a rag doll, I then took one of the judo guys to the SC class and HE was thrown around like a rag doll and the skill sets are far more similar than they are different.

Trust me when I say that, defending the take down VS a well trained grappler and doing the same VS a guy that "knows" how to do a take down is quite a different thing.

[Mr Punch]

And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??... And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??

You've got good points, but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of MMAists so far... I put this down to logical (sparring, full contact etc) training, conditioning and strength combined with the skills: so it really is a question of logic and not a denigration of CMA in any way. But that's just me.

To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid.

I don't see anyone claiming that on this thread, but please, by all means, do continue with your programmed knee-jerk rant!

But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding...

Now who's jumping to conclusions and making baseless presumptions about who's training what...?

Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??

Cool, I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard a lot about it and it sounds great... looking forward to it. He is, as I'm sure you know, in a distinct minority in CMA circles, and you can't really compare his techs to BJJ and MMA grappling. Not because they're faulty, but simply in terms of numbers. I'd love to go to one of Tim Cartmell's seminars and learn some of his stuff, but living in Japan, it's not that likely: and ask anyone which they have more access to; JJ, wrestling or CMA grappling, and I know the answer you'll get.

You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:

1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

Oh, and chill.

[Mr Punch]

Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.

Bye!

But before you go:

...The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

See what works for YOU, and stick with it. Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

Good luck!

So far, noone has helped me at all.

Saying this, after Vankuen's long, helpful, detailed and impartial post is just plain ol' ill-mannered, pal.

That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.

Let's see... sprawl, train with people who sprawl and practice takedowns...? Hmm, nothing that hadn't already been said, which you'd have noticed if you hadn't been so busy pulling your thong out of your ass-crack.

Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.

So, in conclusion: practice what you preach and **** off until you can treat others with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner, you pompous ass...

[monji112000]

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

what did he show you?
really BJJ guys don't have the best takedowns. Honestly are you preparing for a MMA fight? or just SD? I have never seen a "good" takedown in a real fight. The ground normally comes into play after you start clinching. Something really sloppy... thats my experience. Has anyone really seen a nice wrestlers single/double in a none-sports fight?
Ok I'll take that back. In high school that was common becouse of all the wrestlers... but outside of grade school.

I'm more worried about getting punched in the face. maybe I'm crazy...

I'm no expert but sprawling may not be the best option. It depends on allot of variables.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/u_tech2.html

click on the shoot demo clip, the 13th clip

http://fileserver.uechi-ryu.com/videos/shoot.wmv