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Thread: Defence Against Front Tackles

  1. #16
    Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.

  2. #17
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    Nice knowin' ya. Good luck with the 'anti head-dives.' I'm sure you'll be the hero of your third cousin's wedding when your drunk Uncle Earl takes a dive at you from 7 feet away, passing out before he even gets to you.


    "Cousin Dude! Where did you learn to fight like that?"


    "Its a Wing Chun thing, you wouldn't understand."

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really.

    Whoa, you mean really? Well that's different. Why didn't you say so before?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by James O View Post
    Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you. I suppose I used the words 'charging straight' to emphasize their aggressive nature.
    Anyway, nobody has expressed any counter tactics or techniques for this attack except to knee them which surely would send you to ground since you would then be on only 1 leg, or to uppercut them in the face which probably wouldn't stop them taking hold on you and bringing you to the ground.
    I think that if you really want to have the answer to a well done take down attempt ( not the actual take down, that is a different thing), you need to train with guys that are excellent at take downs, they will open your eyes to the numerous ways they can take you down and from all different ranges and angles, you then take that info and see how to best use it in your system of H2H.
    The sprawl is a great place to start because it not only takes your opponents targets away, it put you in a superiour position to launch a counter-attack(s).
    If you have issues dealing with the Jab, you train with boxers, issues dealing with the low round kick or strikes in the clinch, you train with MT guys.

    Whenever you want to focus on dealing with a specialized skill set, like a take down, train with people that specialize in it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #20
    That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.

  6. #21
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    One thing though, and this is very important, training with people well trained in a specific skill set is NOT the same as training with people in your own school or gym that THINK they can do that skill set.
    EX:
    I took a Shuai Chaio guy to a judo class once and he was thrown around like a rag doll, I then took one of the judo guys to the SC class and HE was thrown around like a rag doll and the skill sets are far more similar than they are different.

    Trust me when I say that, defending the take down VS a well trained grappler and doing the same VS a guy that "knows" how to do a take down is quite a different thing.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??

    NO wing chun practitioner EVER can defend against a takedown using WC??

    I bet you believe that the best fighters in the world are in WEC and UFC and that none of them can be beaten by someone outside of thoses organizations, right??

    And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??
    Sorry If I offended you with saying that wing chun had no defense for the tackle. But since you would like to know my qualifications and why I said it, I'll oblige.

    I've trained in martial arts since I was 5 years old. I'm 31 now. My first style was karate, my first black belt was in TKD. In my teen years, my training focused on fighting styles then like wing chun, boxing, and muay thai; and by the way to this day--those are my longest practiced and strongest skillsets. I've got experience from a number of wing chun people/systems and also a couple of different thai coaches. But from there I started to learn a lot of traditional chinese shaolin martial arts. Jingang Quan and Wu xing Chuan. In the process learned lots of chin na, shiua jiao, tai chi, and weapons. I actually preferred Sanda the best...because we were able to incorporate all the prementioned in a full contact arena where I could use the strikes AND throws. Anyway...since MMA was becoming even more popular, I decided it was time to learn some ground game, because a smart fighter stays with the times and adapts to his or her surroundings. I learned BJJ for almost a year, mainly to keep myself out of trouble so I could get back to my own preferred methods. Now I maintain my wing chun, boxing, and muay thai for the most part.

    You see, I've been a mixed martial artist see well before being an mma'er was popular. I've trained in a number of wing chun schools and from a number of lineages. None had a defense for the takedown other than stay away or rotate out of the way. None really worked because one theory was contradictory to the wing chun method of shooting in, and the other just simply didn't work.

    Just in case you didn't know, most traditional arts were also formulated from mixing martial arts. None of it is pure my friend. So adapting outside your system or adapting your current system is simply evolution and improvement. The pragmatic process has been lost somewhere though...probably when teachers wanted to retain students and keep them under contract and so someone started talking crap about loyalty to the system and everything can be found in the forms bull. Be loyal to yourself, because it's only you that's going to determine the outcome of any of your fights.
    Last edited by SAAMAG; 03-25-2008 at 10:19 AM.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really. To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid.
    By your own admittance, being a CMA artist is a MMA'ist. I don't care where the technique comes from, as long as it works (for me).

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    If any of you took the CMA that you were taught and used them to their fullest potential you would find that there are plenty of answers to the questions that might be asked. But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding. You compartmentalize everything that has been taught to you and do not think of it as a live , moving , continuous and evolving. You were taught it one way you only use it one way.
    The answer is in the forms right? Most people who want to learn to fight don't have time to study the same form set for 10 years before figuring out how to adapt their system to defend something. It's not about lack of patience, it's about efficiency.


    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Ever since it became outlawed , demilitarized ( lacking martial intent and application)and then a business, CMA / TMA have not taught the full and complete scope of their respective arts. I think alot can be learned from ,like the fact that all martial arts at one time were like it. You can not reinvent the wheel . All the moves have been done before.

    CMA has always been an MMA.
    Absolutely correct. So then why are you trying to "figure out" something from your own style when the answers are out there right now being used by people who are proficient in it already? The human body can only be used so many different ways, why does it matter what "style" a move comes from?

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    At one time Shuai Jiao /Chiao li / etc. had kicking / punching/ throwing and grappling. Notice that the grappling is after the throwing?? To me this is an indication that Chin Na can be done on the ground after the person has been taken down. I have never heard , except from MMA guys and CMa guys who only learned CMA on a superficial level, that Chin Na is only used standing up and that there are no strategies for groundfighting ( grappling/ striking).

    Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??

    I was taught CMA groundfighting over 17 years ago.
    Yep...Shuai Jiao was the predecessor to all of this stuff in my opinion--to Judo and Jujutsu. I've used my chin na in that BJJ class that I took in Florida and people were like WTF?! Because I improvised using what i knew at the time to try and survive in my new environment. They'd never seen a wrist lock done on someone in there since they focus on large joint manipulation as opposed to small joint.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    Sorry If I offended you with saying that wing chun had no defense for the tackle. But since you would like to know my qualifications and why I said it, I'll oblige.

    I've trained in martial arts since I was 5 years old. I'm 31 now. My first style was karate, my first black belt was in TKD. In my teen years, my training focused on fighting styles then like wing chun, boxing, and muay thai; and by the way to this day--those are my longest practiced and strongest skillsets. I've got experience from a number of wing chun people/systems and also a couple of different thai coaches. But from there I started to learn a lot of traditional chinese shaolin martial arts. Jingang Quan and Wu xing Chuan. In the process learned lots of chin na, shiua jiao, tai chi, and weapons. I actually preferred Sanda the best...because we were able to incorporate all the prementioned in a full contact arena where I could use the strikes AND throws. Anyway...since MMA was becoming even more popular, I decided it was time to learn some ground game, because a smart fighter stays with the times and adapts to his or her surroundings. I learned BJJ for almost a year, mainly to keep myself out of trouble so I could get back to my own preferred methods. Now I maintain my wing chun, boxing, and muay thai for the most part.

    You see, I've been a mixed martial artist see well before being an mma'er was popular. I've trained in a number of wing chun schools and from a number of lineages. None had a defense for the takedown other than stay away or rotate out of the way. None really worked because one theory was contradictory to the wing chun method of shooting in, and the other just simply didn't work.

    Just in case you didn't know, most traditional arts were also formulated from mixing martial arts. None of it is pure my friend. So adapting outside your system or adapting your current system is simply evolution and improvement. The pragmatic process has been lost somewhere though...probably when teachers wanted to retain students and keep them under contract and so someone started talking crap about loyalty to the system and everything can be found in the forms bull. Be loyal to yourself, because it's only you that's going to determine the outcome of any of your fights.
    I don't know of ANY PRACTICAL MA teacher that is against his or her student learning other systems to "fill in the gaps".
    Cross training and mixing MA is the life blood of practical fighting arts and always has been.

    History has taught us that.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #25
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    Talking Where to start...?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??... And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??
    You've got good points, but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of MMAists so far... I put this down to logical (sparring, full contact etc) training, conditioning and strength combined with the skills: so it really is a question of logic and not a denigration of CMA in any way. But that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid.
    I don't see anyone claiming that on this thread, but please, by all means, do continue with your programmed knee-jerk rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
    But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding...
    Now who's jumping to conclusions and making baseless presumptions about who's training what...?

    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
    Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??
    Cool, I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard a lot about it and it sounds great... looking forward to it. He is, as I'm sure you know, in a distinct minority in CMA circles, and you can't really compare his techs to BJJ and MMA grappling. Not because they're faulty, but simply in terms of numbers. I'd love to go to one of Tim Cartmell's seminars and learn some of his stuff, but living in Japan, it's not that likely: and ask anyone which they have more access to; JJ, wrestling or CMA grappling, and I know the answer you'll get.

    You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:

    1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

    2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

    Oh, and chill.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  11. #26
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    Talking Who's the rude bwoy!?

    Quote Originally Posted by James O View Post
    Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.
    Bye!

    But before you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    ...The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

    Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

    Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

    See what works for YOU, and stick with it.
    Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

    Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

    Good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by James O View Post
    So far, noone has helped me at all.
    Saying this, after Vankuen's long, helpful, detailed and impartial post is just plain ol' ill-mannered, pal.

    Quote Originally Posted by James O View Post
    That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.
    Let's see... sprawl, train with people who sprawl and practice takedowns...? Hmm, nothing that hadn't already been said, which you'd have noticed if you hadn't been so busy pulling your thong out of your ass-crack.

    Quote Originally Posted by James O View Post
    Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.
    So, in conclusion: practice what you preach and **** off until you can treat others with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner, you pompous ass...
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    Good luck with the 'anti head-dives.' I'm sure you'll be the hero of your third cousin's wedding when your drunk Uncle Earl takes a dive at you from 7 feet away, passing out before he even gets to you.


    "Cousin Dude! Where did you learn to fight like that?"


    "Its a Wing Chun thing, you wouldn't understand."
    LMAO... that was funny!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I don't know of ANY PRACTICAL MA teacher that is against his or her student learning other systems to "fill in the gaps".
    Oh come on, you haven't been out enough to meet the vastly superior-numbered IMpractical MA teachers???!

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Cross training and mixing MA is the life blood of practical fighting arts and always has been.

    History has taught us that.
    Again, people's definitions of practical are the moot point.

    And I'm afraid you'll find many people were skiving off the history lessons...
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  14. #29
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    You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:

    1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

    2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

    Oh, and chill.
    I have the book in question and it shows some standing and grappling moves that are found in wrestling and judo/jujutsu, which makes sense on many levels, from tha fact that the human body works in finite angles and the fact that grappling moves are consistent through the various cultures.
    Tim is a BJJ Black Belt by the way.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    Oh come on, you haven't been out enough to meet the vastly superior-numbered IMpractical MA teachers???!

    Again, people's definitions of practical are the moot point.

    And I'm afraid you'll find many people were skiving off the history lessons...
    LOL, you are right, I don't know of any MA teachers that are against cross training, maybe I should get out more.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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