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Thread: Defence Against Front Tackles

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    That is not the case. In cases of grapplers vs strikers the strikers almost always land at least several strikes
    They FAIL to strike with telling Blows. This is sometimes due to the grapplers' skills, but a lot of times it is due to the strikers' lack of striking abilities. Meaning I am not trying to take anything away from the grapplers.

    Any valid system of MA should address groundfighting and many do, including some kung fu styles. However, as far as kung fu styles are concerned the fight should not go there. If it does then no one can afford to be a "fish out of water" either, hence the ground training in some styles of Kung Fu..

    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai
    but, contrary to what some would have you believe, landing a punch does not gaurantee a knock out.
    I am aware of that fact but what I was referring to were telling blows and not merely landing a punch and hoping for the best which seems to be the case in many NHB contests (and many street fights too).

    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai
    Niether does finishing a takedown gaurantee an immediate end to a conflict. The difference is that grapplers understand the latter and too many strikers don't want to acknowledge the former.
    Luckily for me I am not one those strikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai
    Grapplers can move from striking to grappling range more easily than strikers can move from grappling to striking range.
    Agreed! and of course it is easier for the human body to move forward rather than backwards.
    Last edited by HardWork8; 05-22-2008 at 06:44 AM.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    I agree, and wonder why you believe that is the case; my thinking is that successful grappling more effectively disrupts a striker's structure than successful striking disrupts a grappler's; or that, in a similar vein, the striker is trying to do two things: hit and remain standing; the grappler on the other hand is concerned with getting a submission, but doesn't care if it goes to the ground; not saying this is definitively the case, just throwing out some ideas
    Most grapplers can't strike their way our of a paper bag COMPARED to a trained striker, the difference is that they don't strike to KO, they strike to submit ( a different ball game) or to get the sub.
    They strike "well enough" for their end goals.

    Anyone that has done the "game" with anyone with decent grappling skills knows the very small "window of opportunity" you get to take out a grappler with a strike while standing.
    The only way to expand that window is to train strikes VS graplers not VS other strikers and the vast majority of striker do not do that.
    Whereas its pretty easy for most grappplers to deal with the "typical" striker that doesn't know how to strike a grappler.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #303
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    IF, and this is a crucial IF, one of the partcipants ina fight wants to take it to the ground there is a better than average chance that it will go there, eventually.
    Experience has taught us this ( at least it has to those that have sought it out and not stayed in the comfort of their own dilusions).
    Look how hard it is to KO someone in a striking environment ( if it was easy everyone would be a KO artists) and that is when we are striking in an ideal situation ( one we train for on a regular basis).
    Now, take out the "ideal" opponent ( another strike since most train VS them) and add a grappler, someone that stands different, moves different, has different footwork and timing, has a different approach, throws different technqiues and set-ups at you, presentes you with different targets.
    See what I mean?
    Unless you drill, constantly, striking someone that is facing you with the tools and attributes of a grappler, your chances of success are minimal.
    Its common sense.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #304
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    Exactly

    Sanjuro put it well- You have to approach the subject with application, but again there is an underlying disadvantage you are accepting that must be considered-
    Grappling is an ultimate solution for 1 on 1 but against multiple attackers? How often is self defense 1 on 1? You hear alot of things about grappling arts being the ultimate martial art, but from Greek Wrestling down to Olympic Judo and Gracie bouts it is one on one, you never see a third party stepping in and stomping the prone combatant to prove a point. It's foundation is competition basically, kung fu's foundation is mortal combat; you don't get jumped and discuss the rules like "no balls, no eyes, no friends helping.." You could challenge a boxer and say you're art is superior then say the match involves no punching.
    You also don't see grapplers worried about killing their opponents, they approach matches eagerly-(Though God knows grapplers can easily kill.) By the same token there are many kung fu styles that are barely legal with the traditional moves created in pre-forensic times- Outside of a self defense situation how many of us have the resolve to rip someone's body parts off like flower petals?

  5. #305
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    If you can't beat 1, the chances of beating more than 1 are ZERO.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolHead View Post
    Outside of a self defense situation how many of us have the resolve to rip someone's body parts off like flower petals?
    .................................................. .

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    .................................................. .
    I must admit, ripping peoples limbs off like the petals of a flower is something I tend to do more often than I admit.
    It's more fun than a barrel of Ninjas !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    so the way to counteract this, as you say, is to train context specific as much as you possibly can, against someone that is going to give you a sufficiently high degree of interference - meaning that, if you are a beginner stiker, you not only have to adapt to a new situation, you have to deal with a variable that is trying to disrupt you as well - meaning that as a beginner, you want to weithe train against a not very good grappler, or a good one who modified what they are doing to at least give you a chance to get in some tries and have some sort of limited success - the trick here is, how long do you keep it this way, and when do you know to turn up the volume so to speak, and also how? do you, as the grappler, come in faster? stronger? add feints? use different techniques? in other words, how do you structure the prctice in order to get the best results, not only within a given practice session, but sequentially over multiple sessions (retention) and finally is there transfer if the stikre then faces a different grappler (transfer)?

    on the other hand, if you are an "advanced" striker, you can focus most of your attention to adapting your delivery system to the new situation
    and pay less attention to your own intrinsic mechanics, right? well, it depends: if you are a pro-boxer, it might actually b harder, because you have become so specialized at hitting a certain way, that if you take someone out of that specificity, they might actually be worse than someone with no experience - again, it depends on the individual (some people are just intrinsically are better at transferring skills) and how far outside of their box they are relative to how specific they are trained

    which is why the whole "deadly arsenal of kung fu" argument doesn't work: unless you train your "eagle tears out the noodle" on a skilled grappler who is trying to not let you get near their vital parts (and I think I'm safe in saying that your average grappler has a fair idea of what it's like to get hit in the face, throat, etc. purely in context of "accidents" that happen in training and competition); the difference between punching someone in the head and poking them in the eye / clawing their throat is negligible, is that in the latter case you have much smaller target areas that the brain is reflexively designed to protect more so than pretty much any other parts of the body (same with the groin - people thin it's so easy just to kick someone there - sure, if the guy is stupid and stands still with his legs spread...); so if you want to be able to use those deadly techniques, you better have some opportunity to practice them against a live, fully-resisting opponent, or you can't really rely on those as an ace-in-the-hole
    Correct, specificity is the rule.

    Beginners need to focus on the basic to get their striking to its highest levels possible - impact force.
    Then they need to adapt that not only in a VS striker context, but a VS grappler and VS MMA context too.
    Reason is not only target accessibility but also the issue of timing.
    Timing is crucial in the striking game and when one is used to "MT timing" or "WC timing" its a different ball game when exposed to "Grappler timing", know what I mean ?

    Now, there are some ways around this for the "advanced" practioner, but on a whole the simplest and best way is to train it and drill it consistently VS what you wanna use it against.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #309
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    I surprised this thread is still going hahaha!

    I been out of it for a few weeks. I had an issue, my neighbor was gunned down and I tried to help him. Got blood all over me, I had a laceration on my hand from a broken glass washing dishes the day before. Didn't know the guy or what he mighta had...so had to take off of contact training for a bit til the docs cleared me. All the blood tests (mine and his) are back negative though so now trying to get back into the groove.

    It just sucks because I was just finding my swing when I had to drop off...actually starting to pull submissions...I hate when that happens.

    Well guess I still got my health

    Gonna get back into it and work some more defenses, I wanna try the crossface stuff here soon. That and I need to work my sweeps.
    Last edited by SoCo KungFu; 05-24-2008 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Correct, specificity is the rule.

    Beginners need to focus on the basic to get their striking to its highest levels possible - impact force.
    Then they need to adapt that not only in a VS striker context, but a VS grappler and VS MMA context too.
    Reason is not only target accessibility but also the issue of timing.
    Timing is crucial in the striking game and when one is used to "MT timing" or "WC timing" its a different ball game when exposed to "Grappler timing", know what I mean ?

    Now, there are some ways around this for the "advanced" practioner, but on a whole the simplest and best way is to train it and drill it consistently VS what you wanna use it against.
    Sorry I'm coming in kinda late here. Perhaps I look at things more simplistically, but the way I see it, you simply want to train with as many different people (in as many different skill sets) as possible.

    Given that almost all of my friends are martial artists, and that I train in a couple different environments, it's pretty easy to train "this vs that" and in my opinion that is one of the best ways to go about doing things.

    When I used to teach in Florida, we worked on a number of things, some things from wing chun, some from muay thai, some from traditional gung fu, some from BJJ, etc. Depends on what we wanted to do that day. One drill we used to do a lot was the grapper vs grappler, striker vs stiker or course (anything goes) -- but then we'd vary things up and go with striker vs the grappler, hands vs striker, or hands vs feet, or anything goes vs boxer, whatever the case may be. It was meant to help build skills in using whatever the skillset was against another skillset. The good thing was that we had people from a number of striking arts and grappling arts so it worked out.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  11. #311
    You ever seen ufc # 4 Royce Grracie vs Keith hackny. Hackny had a good defence at the begining of the match sprawl and punch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0O3-hKuv8
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 06-16-2008 at 11:36 PM.

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