Bak Hsing Kwoon Demo

[Eddie]

I'm a DJ. 32 beats in the front and 32 beats in the end is what I do

But seriously, I liked the way it caem out. Are those two different forms?

[Satori Science]

satori,

when you took over doing the set on this video, where you cut off at the end, is that the ending of your form?

No i cut it off, there are still two long lines and 1 short line left after that,

[Satori Science]

I'm a DJ. 32 beats in the front and 32 beats in the end is what I do

But seriously, I liked the way it caem out. Are those two different forms?

No we broke Di Sup Tse in half and each performed one end of the set,

[nospam]

Tam Sam originally learned Hung Gar then Hong Hsing CLF. His influences can be said to have originally been a mixture of both of these styles. One never forgets their roots, as they run deep. It is reasonable and arguable at best that Tam Sam most likely assimilated his Hung Gar background with his Hong Hsing Choy Lee Fut. In my opinion perhaps being a (or one of possible many) catalyst for why he felt CLF was lacking in some aspects and why he felt modification of Choy Lee Fut was necessary.

It is said Tam Sam not only challenged masters of his day but sat down afterwards and talked and asked questions and learned. He assimilated much during a period of time when he travelled and fought and challenged many gung fu masters, but he challenged himself as well. His CLF became more than what he learned and as such became more unique and more identifyably different.

I reason the two primary CLF clans or branches were too steeped in tradition and family limitations ie) can teach only Chan family members or did not challenge the norm and were more accepting of what, how, and why they were taught. We are products of our environment and most of us of our Teachers. Although I am sure there were a few out there, Tam Sam's ties did not bind so tightly to these CLF traditions.

Forms were not the emphasis of Bak Hsing CLF training. I understand apart from the 3 original patterns as you listed hskwarrior, there was at least a pole pattern (Ba gwa) and a fist pattern of his creation (Ba Gwa Jeung - his ba gwa was of his own invention tho).

So you will see a premise of Hung Hsing in Bak Hsing technique as the common thread is CLF. Tam Sam's techniques are different than Hung Sing. This is fact and can not be disputed otherwise there would still remain only 2 branches. We are all of the CLF Family.

nospam

[Eddie]

In all due respect, we all have different back grounds and some practice different arts together, thus we would all have our own blend of CLF. Its still CLF, I don’t agree that its really different branches, just maybe different flavors.

If a student of a school added his own flavor, is it really a new style?

[Satori Science]

are we really trying to argue bout weather Bak Hsing/Buk Sing is its own branch now....

seems a little silly,

like my Sigung said, "we don't need to argue"

Pce.

[Eddie]

So you decide whats silly and whats not?

Its only been recently that the Buksing guys started getting more vocal about being all that different and that. It just seems that every time a buksing person comes on, they seem to want to be so different to other CLF. My question is, if you then want to be so different, why still call it CLF>

Sure I see the differences, but in the same breath I see differences between all our CLF. Our Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut looks different to Frank’s Lau bun CLF etc etc. Heck, we’ve even had people come on this site and claimed our line uses the wrong Characters for Hung Sing, as we should be Chan Family or something else.

Point is, this division doesn’t seem to be that healthy.

My CLF is different to CLFNole’s CLF, weven though we are bothers (and I’ve learned allot from him). My experience is different to his, and my body is different to his.

But its still CLF, isn’t it?

I think I should go register a style called Laam Sing CLF.

[hskwarrior]

SATORI,

I DON'T LOOK AT HOW YOU DO THINGS, EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS UNIQUE IN THEIR OWN MOVEMENT.

LET ME CLARIFY MYSELF WHEN I SAY I SEE THE SAME THINGS.

1) I am looking for movements in the form, not how they're done. in my opinion, because buk sing stems from hung sing, i am looking into your forms to see elements that are from the fut san hung sing kwoon. NOT HOW YOU USE IT DURING FIGHTING

2) Even my generation of Hung Sing doesn't look like Lau Bun's students. So things will always change over time. but you can still tell that we are of Lau Bun's lineage.
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3) we all have our our own concepts of fighting. Most of the masters from the lau bun lineage were some pretty tough mo fo's, because the gung fu we used was developed in the U.S. we have taken on a different look and feel than some of our other hung sing brothers. Hell, even Hung Sing people don't look like each other.....why? because there is NO standard......each school develops their OWN WAY.

4) until you come out to san fran to meet with us, you couldn't say what we are looking for or not. i will be the first to say, i've seen other hung sing people and were like WTF?

5) when i see buk sing, i see the techniques. NOT how their done. I'm looking for the connection. not the execution. i have my own execution, and most of the time don't agree with others execution, even at times with buk sing. why? because we are all different. no fighting is exactly alike.

6) now how much do you really know about Lun Chee and what he believed or thought about hung sing and buk sing? the reason i ask, is because i KNOW that he completely supported hung sing, especially in singapore, and has actually verbally recorded the CLF history as he recalls it. He specifically requested not to disclose what was in it while he alive. How do i know.....just trust me!

6) Yes, Buk Sing and Hung Sing are different. why, because we all separately develop our gung fu. believe i know this and understand this but look past it every time. because how you use it doesn't identify you to a specific lineage. its not that simple. yes, in my school we do things our way, just like you. but when you do come to sf, you will realize how close we really are.

what other TRUE blooded hung sing have you exchanged hands with? there are not that many around. not true, only hung sing material, no other styles. in many cases, some schools have mixed other styles in their curriculum. fortunately for the lau bun lineage, we kept it pure.

7).......i'll be back gotta take the lady to work.

[Satori Science]

k guys, I'm really not interested in this conversation anymore, seems played out. Your obviously both entitled to your own opinions after many years of hard work in CLF, like I said I'm really not interested in arguing, it seems silly to me,

I never questioned the quality or validity of your methods,

Wish you all the best,

[hskwarrior]

There's no need to argue here.

personally, you all know I'm Hung Sing-Lau Bun lineage and dang well proud of it.


But, i thought we'd all be more open to discussing something as simple as "your roots are in hung sing."

Part of me wants to ask you guys if you are so different, then where did you get your Choy Lee Fut from? (don't get upset it's just a question.)

the other half of me is like, Buk Sing doesn't move like us, but they apply their gung fu from what i've seen very very similar to what the lau bun lineage does.

now you can say how can i say that? well, we have never interacted with ANY other school in any other system. Our gung fu was and still is developed by us for us (fubu) Ours is the first and oldest gung fu school in america over 82 years old........so yeah, i guess i can say without a doubt that what we traditionally do i've seen the buk sing lineage do.

NOW, i want to quote something written about Grand Elder Lun Chee........this comes from the 3rd annual Celebration booklet from the Singapore Hung Sing Kwoon....

"ELDER LUN STARTED LEARNING GONG FU FROM TAM SARM AT AGE 14. IN A RECENT INTERVIEW WITH THE CHINESE NEWSPAPER, LIAN HER WAN BAO, IN SINGAPORE, HE CLAIMED THAT IT WAS THE THRILL OF LION DANCING THAT ACTUALLY ATTRACTED HIM TO JOIN THE "HONG SHENG TAM KOON" WHEN HE WAS A BOY. THE IRONY OF IT WAS THAT THE MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL HE JOINED DID NOT HAVE ANY LION DANCING LESSONS UNTIL A MUCH LATER STAGE. HE HAD BY THEN FOUND HIS NEW LOVE-FUT GAR ZHENG CHONG, THE MOST ORIGINAL NAME OF THE HONG SHENG MARTIAL ARTS WHICH WAS TO BE KNOWN WORLDWIDE LATER AS CHOI LEI FUT."

NOW THE FOLLOWING IS INTERESTING TO ME AS WELL IN REGARDS TO THIS DISCUSSION......

" AS A MATTER OF FACT, ELDER LUN CHEE RATTLED OFFELL KNOWN NAMES OF OTHER HONG SHENG MASTERS LIKE LAU CHUNG, LAU YAU, WONG TOW, AND CHONG TAI AND OTHERS WHO WOULD COME BY OCCASIONALLY TO VISIT HIS TEACHER (TAM SAM). ELDER LUN CHEE SAID THAT HE HIMSELF BENEFITTED MUCH FROM THEIR VISITS BECAUSE HIS TEACHER WOULD FREQUENTLY REQUEST THESE ELDERS TO STAY AND HELPED COACH HIS (TAM SAMS) STUDENTS."



" TAM SAM NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH HIS SENIORS OR ELDERS ON THIS NAME CHANGE AS HE WAS A TRUE-BLOODED HONG SHENG MAN AND HE TAUGHT THE HONG SHENG FIGHTING ART."

"BUT OF COURSE, LIKE MANY OF THE HONG SHENG MASTERS, TAM SAM DID NOT REST ON HIS LAURELS BUT CONTINUED TO EXPLORE ON THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAYS OF USING THE HONG SHENG FIGHTING TECHNIQUES. HE CONSTANTLY EXPLORED WITH HONG SHENG MASTERS LIKE LAU CHUNG, LAU YAU, WONG TOW, AND THE REST, ON THE FIGHTING TECHNIQUES THEY EMPLOYED IN REAL LIFE COMBAT. IT LED HIM TO DEVELOP THE POWERFUL CHUP KUEN (LEOPARD PUNCH) INTO LIN WAN CHUP KUEN-SUCCESSIVE PUNCHES THAT BECAME THE HALLMARK OF BUK SING KWOON. "

"ELDER LUN CHEE EMPHASIZED THAT HIS LATE TEACHER TAM SAM DID NOT INVENT NEW FIGHTING TECHNIQUES, OR STARTED A NEW STYLE. HE SIMPLY REDEFINED WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT AND SHARPENED ITS EFFECTIVENESS. TO THIS END, OTHER HONG SHENG MASTERS HAD ALSO MADE EQUALLY USEFUL CONTRIBUTIONS."


SEE, WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO FEEL BUK SING 'IS' HUNG SING, WITH THEIR OWN FLAVOR.

BUT I DIGRESS.

[Satori Science]

I will interject one more time to say I have also read the above mentioned quote some years ago, it is published on Master Vince's buksing.com website. I read it 4 maybe even 5 years ago and am well aware of it.

This is not exactly the version of history I have coming from either my sigung or Sifu who both knew Lun Jee personally, As frank has often said I defer to the version of history I inherted the debate doens't mean that much to me

I'm not exactly sure what the debate is about to be honest. We play our CLF different, we have a different name, it was Lun Jee that had my Sifu promise to call his school the Bak Hsing Kwoon, and so I will as well and as you highlighted the original name of the style was fut gar, hence the Bak Hsing Kwoon Fut Gar style, one way or the other it doesn't matter to me,

I have stressed that we have a common ancestry we are sister systems and the way my Sigung (a student of both Lun Jee and Tam Fei Pang) related our history "Bak Hsing tech. is clearly different" My sifu has always said Lun Jee emphasized unity and so have I,

I don't hear Frank calling himself LKH nor do I here Eddie calling himself Ng family Xiong Sing, the arguments seem a little trivial,

as I said for us what matters is the method of fighting, the forms mean nothing to me and I rarely practice them any more, perhaps that is the difference. I might add that I have 6 northern Shaolin sets and a litany of northern weapons, which I don't see taught in other CLF schools,

difference is just that, the universe is a manifestation of the myriad, the 10,000 things but they all arise from the Tao equally, there is always unity in deversity...
but as Prisig puts it the real question isn't, stature or status but QUALITY, if you have quality in your gung fu you need be unconcerned with such trivial things but grateful for your blessing to happened upon a treasure like that in your life, Chaung Tzu says the enlightened man has no need of comparison....

As my Sifu always says, a full barrel makes no noise, probably why I talk so much, I still have a lot to learn
Train hard,

[hskwarrior]

Now Thats Good.

I Mean The Letting Go Of The Forms Concept.

I Did That A Long Time Ago. It Was My Own Light Bulb Turning On At That Time.

I Have Been Focusing On The Fighting Side Of Things Since I've Been Teaching.

When I Was Young And Hardcore, We Sparred All The Time. No Gloves With The Mindset If You Got Hit It Wasn't My Fault. It Was Yours.

I Am Completely On The Same Page With You, How We Apply Our Clf Is The Most Important. I Often Tell My Students Who A Performer's Clf Will Look So Pretty, But A Fighters Clf Will Be Ugly. Brutal. And The Student Doesn't Care If He Looks Pretty.

Our School's Philosophy Has Always Been, Shut Up And Show Me!

[hskwarrior]

"difference is just that, the universe is a manifestation of the myriad, the 10,000 things but they all arise from the Tao equally, there is always unity in deversity...
but as Prisig puts it the real question isn't, stature or status but QUALITY, if you have quality in your gung fu you need be unconcerned with such trivial things but grateful for your blessing to happened upon a treasure like that in your life, Chaung Tzu says the enlightened man has no need of comparison...."

SORRY, I AM NOT THAT SPIRITUAL. LOL.

I AM OF THE TYPE THAT SAYS, PHUCK WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, PROVE IT TO ME.
IF YOU SAY YOU CAN KICK MY BUTT, DON'T TALK ABOUT IT "BE" ABOUT IT!

ITS FUNNY, CAUSE MY SIFU DOES THE GUZHENG, AND THE GENERAL DAVE LACEY ASKED ME, HOW'S THAT GONNA HELP WITH HIS KWA SOW CHOP".........LOL.

BUK SING'S BLOOD IS FILLED WITH FIGHING GENES...........

BUT YOU'RE STILL ORIGINALLY HUNG SING

[Satori Science]

Sibak Dave Lacey also says on his website,

"the Buck Sing system has been the source of my martial and spiritual enlightenment's in life"

For me I try to balance myself, thats all. I've said to someone who cracked a joke about my philosophizing that I don't believe in religion, only in hitting people..."

humility is an important part of this way of life, thats my take on it,
just another aspect. I have an article written in english & chinese by Jun Chui Yuen, Lun Jee's disciple it reads more like a text on Taosim than on fighting, I gave my sifu the chinese version to read and he said the same thing, it was al about yin and yang (chop) and form and emptiness. Tam Sam was a calligrapher and obviously a deep thinker too,

[Eddie]

Its not fair to start something and then back away from it when you decide you had enough

We have had many of these discussions over the last 10 years here on KFM forum.

It just seems that the division between the various CLF styles has grown much bigger in the past year or two, and it seems that the buksing people are more determined to insist that they are different.

All respect to them and anyone.

I remember that Frank once told some story that some CLF master saw him at a tournament and commented on his tattoo that says Hung Sing CLF? Maybe Frank could fill us in about that.

I just like to call it CLF.

Satori, don’t worry, we aren’t fighting. Debating is healthy, and we are all mature adults here.