center of gravity

[norrin]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

[KPM]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

[couch]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

Chiro Keith!

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing. This, again, backs up why L5-S1/S1-S2 joints are always the chief complaint for back pain. In my world, the Kidney energy governs the lower back, so I generally just treat Urinary Bladder 23 (Back Transporting Point of Kidney) @ L2.

Back on topic, while the WC forms train wonderfully where to put your COG (SNT=Sitting, CK=Shifting/Moving, BJ=Bending), I personally think that by trying to hit a heavy bag, structure and COG is rocked and is then made to adjust. This, plus trying to hit a moving target (missing) messes with that COG.

So, for me, forms, heavy bag hitting, and missing all fix and stress the COG.

I hope to meet you one day, Keith. I think we'd have a lot to gab about!

Best,
Kenton

[norrin]

If I understand you right, what you are essentially asking is "how do you use the Kwa?" The Kwa is the pelvic complex....pelvis/hip joints/lumbosacral junction. The typical person's COG lies just in front of the second sacral segment when they are walking, which puts it dead center in the Kwa. I don't think this location changes much when doing Wing Chun, unlike when doing styles that drop down into low stances. The Kwa can be used to express power in Wing Chun techniques as long as the pelvis is not rolled forward and "locked in", which effectively keeps the Kwa from moving on its own. If the Kwa is allowed to "float", then it can amplify a wave-like motion that is initiated with the legs. The power produced is like snapping a whip. Picture the legs as the handle of the whip, the Kwa as the junction between the handle and the body of the whip, the spine and arms as the body of the whip, and the hands as the tip of the whip. This can certainly be trained! But its better seen and felt than explained in words.

i dont know if i really mean the kwa movement--->http://youtube.com/watch?v=PtBPZmRGC3M

this is not found in wing chun-but if you watch this clip. they are trying to use their COG to get their straight forard power into the opponent without loosing balance.
maybe i used the wrong word with COG, maybe dynamic rooting would be a better word for it.look at the big boy with the white shirt on
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wnb3DrnVfvQ

he is trying to "walk through his opponent" but he is leaning forward a bit-which is wrong. what we cant see is are they using power from their upper body or are they using the COG to build up a structure so that they can be relaxed in the upper body and just push the other guy with their COG or dynamic rooting?

do you guys know what i mean?
in WC we usually use the waist for pivoting and with the pivot comes the power in the strike but i see myself often "standing up" in a way while pivoting and punching instead of sinking down.
what does it feel like when you sink?
i mean do you feel any muscles in your body getting more tensed or more relaxed?
how does it feel if somebody is just pushing your frontside while your standing in siu lim tau stance-can you sink? and how does it feel if the pressure gets harder?

is anybody out there training this-the wing chun way?

[KPM]

i dont know if i really mean the kwa movement this is not found in wing chun-

---Sure it is! At least in some Wing Chun. But its not the same as you see in the clip you posted. That was "long bridge", while Wing Chun is "short bridge." Its like the difference between cracking a 10 foot whip and cracking a 3 foot whip.

but if you watch this clip. they are trying to use their COG to get their straight forard power into the opponent without loosing balance.

---That is still done with use of the Kwa.

maybe i used the wrong word with COG, maybe dynamic rooting would be a better word for it.look at the big boy with the white shirt on he is trying to "walk through his opponent" but he is leaning forward a bit-which is wrong.

---He is not leaning forward. The hips lead and the upper body follows. That's not a "lean." But he is over-exaggerating things. Whether as part of the development or because he doesn't truly understand how to use his Kwa I couldn't say without seeing more.

in WC we usually use the waist for pivoting and with the pivot comes the power in the strike

---The waist is used for much more than pivoting. The waist comes into action even when you don't move the feet. This is using the Kwa to express power as well.

but i see myself often "standing up" in a way while pivoting and punching instead of sinking down.

---That's a common technical mistake. I think it is more likely to happen when you are pivoting on the heel rather than on the K1 point.

what does it feel like when you sink?

---If feels like your entire structure is collapsing down and forward to a point approximately 1 foot in front of you that is the tip of a triangle formed by the angling of your knees.

i mean do you feel any muscles in your body getting more tensed or more relaxed?

---From the knees up should feel relatively relaxed. The calves will feel tensed because they are the main stabilizers supporting the weight.

how does it feel if somebody is just pushing your frontside while your standing in siu lim tau stance-can you sink?

---You better! Or you're going over backwards!

and how does it feel if the pressure gets harder?

---You redirect the force downward by sinking forwards towards the point I mentioned. When the force exceeds what you can handle, that's when you pivot to redirect it to the side. This will not work well if you are standing in the "Wing Chun Slouch", or if you have your weight centered on the heels rather than on the K1 point.

is anybody out there training this-the wing chun way?

---Of course! I train this way. Robert Chu's students train this way. Check out www.alanorr.com Look at some of the articles he has posted.

[KPM]

Hey Kenton!

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing.

---There are several factors in the walking gait cycle that smooth out the movement of the COG when in motion. Its interesting how these are used or not used when doing specific martial arts footwork.

Back on topic, while the WC forms train wonderfully where to put your COG (SNT=Sitting, CK=Shifting/Moving, BJ=Bending), I personally think that by trying to hit a heavy bag, structure and COG is rocked and is then made to adjust. This, plus trying to hit a moving target (missing) messes with that COG.
So, for me, forms, heavy bag hitting, and missing all fix and stress the COG.

---I agree! You have to put your structure under some stress to make sure it won't break down. Heavy bag hitting is part of that. So is heavy bag or wooden dummy "pressing." So is "pressing" an opponent during Chi Sao as Norrin showed in that clip. An exercise I like to do that I picked up from Alan Orr is playing "medicine ball catch." You and your partner stand opposite each other in the YGKYM stance. Using the Kwa, you launch the medicine ball to your partner using both hands like passing a basketball. You keep the elbows in and try to "arc" the ball as little as possible. You have to really use the Kwa to make it work. You can't do it with just the arms, and no step or pivot is allowed. The guy catching has to receive the ball with both hands and absorb the force downwards and not backwards. If his stance isn't good, he's going over backwards!

I hope to meet you one day, Keith. I think we'd have a lot to gab about!

---Sure thing! It would be a good time!

[couch]

An exercise I like to do that I picked up from Alan Orr is playing "medicine ball catch." You and your partner stand opposite each other in the YGKYM stance. Using the Kwa, you launch the medicine ball to your partner using both hands like passing a basketball. You keep the elbows in and try to "arc" the ball as little as possible. You have to really use the Kwa to make it work. You can't do it with just the arms, and no step or pivot is allowed. The guy catching has to receive the ball with both hands and absorb the force downwards and not backwards. If his stance isn't good, he's going over backwards!

I'm going to try this. What size ball do you use (weight)?

Although Chum Kiu is mostly translated as Seeking Bridge, I know that (because of limited Mandarin knowledge) that words can mean several things. I always explain it as Seeking AND Sinking Bridge.

I have a close friend who did Bak Mei kung-fu. They definitely have a "dragon back" or hunch and expel air to gain Ging or "springy/relaxed energy" when striking with a phoenix eye punch, etc. Where I see the similarity is in the dummy form with the Po Pai (holding the sign). But with WC, we don't want to telegraph as much or lose that structure, so bending is out of the question. This is why, I believe, the sink is an important factor when striking or kicking. While maybe the terminology of "sinking" is unique to MA, I don't think this has any real difference than my boxing coach telling me to "sit down" on my punches.

Best,
Kenton

P.S. I'm a K1'er as well!

[KPM]

I'm going to try this. What size ball do you use (weight)?

---15 lbs. If you can throw it with your arms you're too close. If you have to arc it up into the air you're too far apart.

Although Chum Kiu is mostly translated as Seeking Bridge, I know that (because of limited Mandarin knowledge) that words can mean several things. I always explain it as Seeking AND Sinking Bridge.

---Yep! Me too!

I have a close friend who did Bak Mei kung-fu. They definitely have a "dragon back" or hunch and expel air to gain Ging or "springy/relaxed energy" when striking with a phoenix eye punch, etc.

---You see Wing Chun guys do that too. Maybe some inappropriate cross-fertilization? Did you ever see the commercial video that Wong Shun Leung made decades ago called "The Science of In-fighting"? There was a guy on the video, not WSL himself, who stood in the "Wing Chun slouch" with his hips forward and his shoulders back and with his torso rounded or "hunched." I always wondered about that, because one would assume he was one of WSL's senior students if he was featured in the video.

But with WC, we don't want to telegraph as much or lose that structure, so bending is out of the question. This is why, I believe, the sink is an important factor when striking or kicking. While maybe the terminology of "sinking" is unique to MA, I don't think this has any real difference than my boxing coach telling me to "sit down" on my punches.

---I agree. Wing Chun should be looked at as being no different than any other athletic activity. A tennis player bends his/her knees and "sinks" when going for the ball, and has a squared off ready position. The same is true of a football lineman. Boxers definitely learn to sink. And NONE of these athletes spend any appreciable time with the majority of their weight back on their heels!


P.S. I'm a K1'er as well!

--- Check out my webpage. I have a blog about the K1 pivot. IMHO it is the most sound way to move from a biomechanical standpoint.

[KPM]

---You see Wing Chun guys do that too. Maybe some inappropriate cross-fertilization? Did you ever see the commercial video that Wong Shun Leung made decades ago called "The Science of In-fighting"? There was a guy on the video, not WSL himself, who stood in the "Wing Chun slouch" with his hips forward and his shoulders back and with his torso rounded or "hunched." I always wondered about that, because one would assume he was one of WSL's senior students if he was featured in the video.

.

I just put up another blog on my website about the "Wing Chun Slouch." Check it out in the "IMHO" section.

[norrin]

are there any vids on youtube where i can see what exactly you mean by short bridge kwa. i dont think that in the vids of alan is that kind of COG or rooting that i mean. look at this man from germany do you think he has that COG or rooting-the way you do it? or his "kwa-usage"different like the one of the wong shun leung student you mentioned before?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM
greetings norrin

ps. thanks for your answers

[Sifu MASS]

Hi Guys,

Here is a clip of Samuel Kwok doing chi sao with Lee Bower. Mr Bower is one of the strongest men in Europe. He has placed in the top 5 in many strong man contest. Master Kwok demonstrates how to control and neutralize the opponents strength. This he does by having a very good root, and an uncany understanding of how to control the opponents energy.

-Tony

[KPM]

Hi Norrin!

i dont think that in the vids of alan is that kind of COG or rooting that i mean.

---Maybe not.

look at this man from germany do you think he has that COG or rooting-the way you do it? or his "kwa-usage"different like the one of the wong shun leung student you mentioned before?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg

---I would say...yes! Phillip Bayer is very good. If you watch the footage where he is "pressing" his opponent during Chi Sao you can see him using his waist. As far as the guy in the WSL videotape....I was commenting on his Wing Chun slouch, not his use of the Kwa.


or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM

---Just from this video clip...I would say no. During Chi Sao he is using arms and good stepping, but he never seems to press from the hips. Which is interesting since both are WSL students!

[drleungjohn]

I just found this thread-nice work guys-you are doing fine w/o me and my 25 cents

[Hendrik]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

the true kungfu of Centering and dynamic rooting has to be cultivate after one attain the walking sleep state.

in general, what is present as COG power today has never left the domain of using force against force which is mention in the classical chinese internal art script.

btw in advance chinese internal art, the real balance and rooting is the balance and rooting of consciousness. and that mean, one needs to be able to quiet one's mind to get there. as it said -- comes accept....using silence to manage action. silence is the real cog. when the mind quiet the body become alive beyond imagination....





thus i have heard

[k gledhill]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

the COG should be like a pond , the opponents should be like a nor'easter , if it isnt make it so .... if its still make it splash while you deliver the quiet pond at all times ...

if you think of the cog as a cylindrical container inside your hips containing water , the chumkil drills should allow the spinning, stepping , sliding, facing to be done with maximal force without losing one drop during the fight . A lot of time we are fighting the cog throught the levers [arms/legs] presented . We attack the void created by those attempting to recover what we cant see...balance. If we adopt a constant attack we will take advantage of this simple thing as it happens....or we can po-pai the bucket over , why wait