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Thread: Tai Chi as medicine

  1. #166
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    inferred

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    (btw, Hendrick's not the only one "guilty" - many licensed healthcare professionals make exactly the same error, be it from personal bias / not looking critically at something, and making assurances they ought not make)
    Thanks for that... you may have inferred that our experience with the "medical industry" over this issue has not been pleasant over the years; and right now this red hot minute today it has been extremely unpleasant.... when my wife gets an adrenaline flow you can bet that a good part of that flows downhill.... When kiddoes do come very close to dying on very short notice, then for years afterward it seems almost surreal... it never goes away and comes back at you day after day after day, no matter what you do...
    .... Skip

  2. #167
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    No worries about the threadjack, Skip J.

    Eventually, another news article will come along and put us back OT. Good to see you gentlemen have resolved this more or less peaceably. That's so refreshing - a testament to the taiji forum perhaps.
    Tai Chi Helps People with Arthritis of the Knee
    Monday, March 08, 2010 by: David Gutierrez, staff writer

    (NaturalNews) Tai Chi can reduce pain and improve function in people who suffer from osteoarthritis of the knee, according to a study conducted by researchers from Tufts University and published in the journal Arthritis Care and Research.

    Tai Chi is a traditional form of Chinese exercise that involves slow, rhythmic movements. The study was funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

    Researchers conducted the study on 40 people over the age of 55 who were suffering from arthritis of the knee. Half the participants were assigned to either a twice-a-week Tai Chi class, while half were assigned to a twice-a-week general wellness and stretching class. All participants were instructed to repeat their Tai Chi or stretching exercises at home for 20 minutes per day. At the beginning and end of the study, they filled out questionnaires about their pain, mental state, quality of life and other health-related information.

    All exercises used in the study were designed to avoid aggravating arthritis of the knee.

    After 12 weeks, participants in the Tai Chi group reported a 75 percent reduction in pain and a 72 percent increase in their ability to perform daily tasks, such as climbing stairs. These numbers were significantly higher than those of the control group. Participants in the Tai Chi group also reported significantly less depression and better health than patients in the control group.

    Thirty-six weeks after the conclusion of the study, fewer than half of the participants were still doing the exercises they had been assigned. By this time, there was little difference in pain, ability to perform daily tasks, or other health measures between the two groups. People who had been in the Tai Chi group still had significantly lower depression scores than people who had been in the stretching group, however.

    Osteoarthritis patients seeking to try Tai Chi should be sure to inform their instructors about their arthritis or other health conditions.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
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  3. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Eventually, another news article will come along and put us back OT. Good to see you gentlemen have resolved this more or less peaceably. That's so refreshing - a testament to the taiji forum perhaps.
    no, as taiji practitioners we just bury our grudges internally...

    as for the study - it's a good start, at least there was a comparison between activities; however, the information about what both groups did specifically was lacking; that would be necessary in order to draw some more reliable conclusions; for example, what style of taiji? what stretches and "general wellness" activities?

    what I personally would like to see is the difference between a group studying taiji and a group doing slow movements similar in quality but not actually taiji; my point being is that, while I agree that the qualitative aspects of moving slowly with focused awareness of body in space coordinated with breathing is a good thing, I don't believe it needs must be organized as a taiji form to be effective;

  4. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    what I personally would like to see is the difference between a group studying taiji and a group doing slow movements similar in quality but not actually taiji; my point being is that, while I agree that the qualitative aspects of moving slowly with focused awareness of body in space coordinated with breathing is a good thing, I don't believe it needs must be organized as a taiji form to be effective;
    I would like to see a study between Tai Chi and water aerobics!

    BYT for myself this is nothing against Tai Chi, I love Tai Chi, it is just about proper scientific demonstration the benefits within the proper context. I would still recommend Tai Chi for just about anyone!

  5. #170
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    attachments...

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Eventually, another news article will come along and put us back OT. Good to see you gentlemen have resolved this more or less peaceably. That's so refreshing - a testament to the taiji forum perhaps.
    Thank you for your kind words Gene!

    It's odd where one finds attachments that you have to let go, ain't it????

    If it "stokes" my adrenaline flow.... I gotta let it go....

    full disclosure: there are many, many health professionals out there who truly help their patients as best they can. Actually, it's administrators who look at the money flow and cut folks off at the pass... And, Type 1 DB will drive a whole family crazy, each and every one... that's no excuse tho....
    .... Skip

  6. #171
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    some fine words there

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I would like to see a study between Tai Chi and water aerobics!

    BYT for myself this is nothing against Tai Chi, I love Tai Chi, it is just about proper scientific demonstration the benefits within the proper context. I would still recommend Tai Chi for just about anyone!
    Well said Scott.....



    Hmmmmmm...ummmm ......... well, ok.... can I suggest very humbly that it mite be enlightening also - to scientifically study how many old folks will take tai chi that will not take other suitable activities??????? Perhaps while we are being reasonable about the comparison of effectiveness, that we should not overlook what we have???

    I'm just sayin'......
    .... Skip

  7. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Skip J. View Post
    Thanks for that... you may have inferred that our experience with the "medical industry" over this issue has not been pleasant over the years; and right now this red hot minute today it has been extremely unpleasant.... when my wife gets an adrenaline flow you can bet that a good part of that flows downhill.... When kiddoes do come very close to dying on very short notice, then for years afterward it seems almost surreal... it never goes away and comes back at you day after day after day, no matter what you do...
    Quote Originally Posted by Skip J. View Post
    full disclosure: there are many, many health professionals out there who truly help their patients as best they can. Actually, it's administrators who look at the money flow and cut folks off at the pass... And, Type 1 DB will drive a whole family crazy, each and every one... that's no excuse tho....
    there are negative issues within the medical system on all levels, from basic knowledge, to individual practitioner skill to administrative organization to insurance reimbursement; I would be the last person to paint it in a uniformly positive light;

    at the same time, there is, I believe, a great value to the idea / ideal of dispassionate inquiry; and, again, since we are framing taiji as medicine and not martial art / recreation, it necessarily becomes beholden to that ideal; meaning that we have to set our personal feelings aside (personally, I luv taiji as a practice for reasons that would be difficult, though not impossible, to qualify objectively) and examine the aspects of taiji that make it "as such", and distill them down to a common demominator for 2 reasons: one, to actually understand what those components are in order to see if there are other practices that contain them and two, to see iff in fact the practice of "taiji" is in deed greater than the sum of its parts when applied clinically - meaning that, if we look at the qualitative aspects - slow, focused movement, breath awareness, etc. - do we find a difference if these are applied exclusive of the taiji super-structure, or is there something about the way in which they are organized in the form sequence that makes a difference (for example - if u do 10 taiji moves in one sequence versus another, is there a difference?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip J. View Post
    Hmmmmmm...ummmm ......... well, ok.... can I suggest very humbly that it mite be enlightening also - to scientifically study how many old folks will take tai chi that will not take other suitable activities??????? Perhaps while we are being reasonable about the comparison of effectiveness, that we should not overlook what we have???

    I'm just sayin'......
    this is an excellent study topic and it's exactly the sort of thing that you want to look at in terms of patient participation and, more importantly, retention; for example, the osteoarthritis study noted that in 36 months, most people were doing neither their exercises nor the taiji - why not? so we would want to not only look at taiji per se, but at effective retention models in general; taiji in particular, i think, has the potential to be more interesting / engaging - and that might be a qualitative difference between doing the movements in isolation and in terms of a form - meaning that if you combine what effectively amounts to a study of another cultural paradigm with exercise, you have a formula for engaging people more thoroughly over the long term; of course, the social group aspect is important; also the idea that you never stop learning in terms of exploration of the form - whereas once you learn the stretching, the attitude is that you pretty much have learned it, now go do it on autopilot (which I personally disagree with, I think you can teach regular stretching in a way that is continually engaging, but anyway...) - this will lead to boredom and habituation and lack of retention of patients;

  8. #173
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    yes, exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    there are negative issues within the medical system on all levels, from basic knowledge, to individual practitioner skill to administrative organization to insurance reimbursement; I would be the last person to paint it in a uniformly positive light;

    at the same time, there is, I believe, a great value to the idea / ideal of dispassionate inquiry; and, again, since we are framing taiji as medicine and not martial art / recreation, it necessarily becomes beholden to that ideal; meaning that we have to set our personal feelings aside (personally, I luv taiji as a practice for reasons that would be difficult, though not impossible, to qualify objectively) and examine the aspects of taiji that make it "as such", and distill them down to a common demominator for 2 reasons: one, to actually understand what those components are in order to see if there are other practices that contain them and two, to see iff in fact the practice of "taiji" is in deed greater than the sum of its parts when applied clinically - meaning that, if we look at the qualitative aspects - slow, focused movement, breath awareness, etc. - do we find a difference if these are applied exclusive of the taiji super-structure, or is there something about the way in which they are organized in the form sequence that makes a difference (for example - if u do 10 taiji moves in one sequence versus another, is there a difference?)


    this is an excellent study topic and it's exactly the sort of thing that you want to look at in terms of patient participation and, more importantly, retention; for example, the osteoarthritis study noted that in 36 months, most people were doing neither their exercises nor the taiji - why not? so we would want to not only look at taiji per se, but at effective retention models in general; taiji in particular, i think, has the potential to be more interesting / engaging - and that might be a qualitative difference between doing the movements in isolation and in terms of a form - meaning that if you combine what effectively amounts to a study of another cultural paradigm with exercise, you have a formula for engaging people more thoroughly over the long term; of course, the social group aspect is important; also the idea that you never stop learning in terms of exploration of the form - whereas once you learn the stretching, the attitude is that you pretty much have learned it, now go do it on autopilot (which I personally disagree with, I think you can teach regular stretching in a way that is continually engaging, but anyway...) - this will lead to boredom and habituation and lack of retention of patients;
    Thank you taai, very well said!

    Regarding other stretching, in watching the yoga class before ours to clear out of our room, it is obvious that he has his students put their mind in their bodies while stretching, and when laying flat they seem glued to the earth. No doubt they are getting there without need to imagine whacking on anybody in the process. They have very few men in yoga, but the few men who do are the ones who stick with it and advance up their chain.

    What I see is that more men will try taiji than yoga, and of them, more will stick with it over the long term. They enjoy thinking about whacking bad guys, just as I do. Women will take taiji, or yoga, or whatever on a regular basis; it doesn't matter to most of them what "it" is. So my own focus is on guys like me, rather than the general population......

    So your question is - is taiji really special in some way, or do we just want it to be that way????? If it is, what are the parts that make it special and how can we focus on them?

    For me the question is 180 degrees out from yours, there is no doubt that taiji - any taiji - can be presented to out-of-shape elderly guys who need it and they will sign on to give it a try. That is the only difference that matters to me.


    Sooooo, the subject is not so much about a 1/2 full glass as about the difference in apples and oranges... it's all good with a little bit of different taste... kinda like the difference in taiji and yoga.
    .... Skip

  9. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    the osteoarthritis study noted that in 36 months, most people were doing neither their exercises nor the taiji - why not?
    It would be interesting to find out what the percentage was and how it compares to the general public, since in truth most people who start any kind of exercise program do not continue it after a period of time!

  10. #175
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    bury our grudges internally

    Good one, taai gihk yahn.

    I studied yoga for a spell. My wife is a former yoga instructor. I even went to India to study yoga. It wasn't that I was any good at it. I was just following my wife on an adventure. I've always disliked the comparisons between yoga and tai chi. To me, they are very different. They are only lumped together as eastern holistic practices by the West. However, tai chi trails yoga by so much here now. It's not a good comparison at all.

    BTW, here's another study...sort of...
    Study on preventing memory loss in seniors seeks participants

    (Media-Newswire.com) - We’ve all heard references to “senior moments,” but does growing older have to mean also becoming forgetful? Stanford University School of Medicine’s Victor Henderson, MD, doesn’t think so, and he is investigating ways to prevent memory loss among seniors.

    In a new study, Henderson and colleagues are testing whether specific group activities can impact cognitive function. The researchers are now looking for older adults to participate in their pilot study.

    Previous studies have shown that performing certain physical and mental activities and engaging in social activities may help lower the risk of mental decline among seniors. Last year, for example, research presented at the American Academy of Neurology’s annual meeting showed that older adults who read books, played games and did craft activities were 30 to 50 percent less likely to develop memory loss compared with people who didn’t engage in those activities.

    Henderson, a professor of health research and policy and of neurology and neurological sciences, has long been interested in risk factors and therapies for dementia and age-related cognitive decline. For this work, he decided to compare the potential memory-boosting benefits of tai chi, a Chinese martial arts form that has been called “mediation in motion;” guided autobiography writing, during which participants produce a written record of their past; and seminars focused on healthy aging. “We were looking for innovative activities that would be engaging and somewhat complex,” said Henderson. “The focus is on having participants learn a new skill or something useful.”

    Anecdotal evidence suggests that tai chi can help improve memory, and a small Stanford study also showed it might boost mental capacity. But, Henderson said, this study marks the first time that tai chi, or guided writing, have been looked at in this context.

    During the study, 108 healthy adults over the age of 70 will be randomized to participate in tai chi or guided autobiography writing, attend a weekly session on healthy aging, or do a combination of tai chi and writing. Participants will attend group sessions for the first six months and, if assigned to tai chi or writing, encouraged to continue the practice at home with scheduled phone calls. They will be assessed in the beginning of the study, and again at six and 12 months.

    If results from this pilot study appear promising, Henderson said, he plans to conduct larger trials on the specific intervention.

    Participants in this study must be age 70 or older with a relatively inactive lifestyle. They must be able to travel to Stanford for classes and must not be limited in their ability to participate in light exercise or to write. Adults with dementia are not eligible for the trial. Those interested in volunteering or obtaining more information about the trial should call ( 650 ) 721-3308 or e-mail Ace-seniors@stanford.edu.

    The research is being funded by the National Institute on Aging, part of the National Institutes of Health.

    PRINT MEDIA CONTACT
    Michelle Brandt | Tel ( 650 ) 723-0272
    mbrandt@stanford.edu BROADCAST MEDIA CONTACT
    M.A. Malone | Tel ( 650 ) 723-6912
    mamalone@stanford.edu Stanford University Medical Center integrates research, medical education and patient care at its three institutions - Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford Hospital & Clinics and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital. For more information, please visit the Office of Communication & Public Affairs site at http://mednews.stanford.edu/.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  11. #176
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    R.a.

    Here's an abstract of what appears to be an interesting study.
    Exploring Tai Chi in Rheumatoid Arthritis: A Quantitative and Qualitative Study

    Till Uhlig; Camilla Fongen; Eldri Steen; Sigrid Ødegård

    Posted: 04/12/2010; BMC Family Practice. 2010;11:43 © 2010 Uhlig et al; licensee BioMed Central, Ltd.

    Background: Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is a chronic, inflammatory and systemic disease which affects the musculoskeletal system. Exercise programmes are reported to improve physical functioning in patients with RA. Tai Chi is a traditional Chinese martial art which combines slow and gentle movements with mental focus. The purpose of this study was to study in which way Tai Chi group exercise impacted on disease activity, physical function, health status and experience in RA patients, applying quantitative and qualitative methods.

    Methods: Fifteen patients with RA (13 females, age 33–70 years) were recruited from a rheumatology department into a single group study. The patients were instructed in Tai Chi exercise twice weekly for 12 weeks. Assessments at baseline, 12 weeks, and 12 weeks follow-up were performed with a wide range of measures, including disease activity, self-reported health status, physical performance tests (Walking in Figure of Eight, Timed-Stands Test, and Shoulder Movement Impairment Scale). Qualitative data were obtained from a focus group interview conducted after completed intervention with taping and verbatim transcription. Review of the transcripts identified themes important to patients practicing Tai Chi.

    Results: Within the group, Tai Chi practice lead to improved lower-limb muscle function at the end of intervention and at 12 weeks follow-up. Qualitative analyses showed that patients experienced improved physical condition, confidence in moving, balance and less pain during exercise and in daily life. Other experience included stress reduction, increased body awareness, confidence in moving and indicated that Tai Chi was a feasible exercise modality in RA.
    Conclusions: Improved muscle function in lower limbs was also reflected when patient experiences with Tai Chi were studied in depth in this explorative study. The combination of qualitative and quantitative research methods shows that Tai Chi has beneficial effects on health not related to disease activity and standardised health status assessment, and may contribute to an understanding of how Tai Chi exerts its effects.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  12. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Here's an abstract of what appears to be an interesting study.
    not bad, but again, no comparison that shows taiji to be uniquely beneficial as opposed to other forms of similar movement approaches (e.g. - Feldenkreis);

    also a very small sample size, so there is not going to be much power statistically (u usually want at least 20 participants per sample group for this)

    and the data of patient's self-report was not assessed using a standardized measurement tool, but rather based on examiner's subjective interpretation of "qualitative interviews", meaning that operator bias could be a factor as well;

    not wanting to become a Medscape member, I was unable to get to the study via the provided link, so there may be things that I missed...
    Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 04-13-2010 at 10:20 AM.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    not bad, but again, no comparison that shows taiji to be uniquely beneficial as opposed to other forms of similar movement approaches (e.g. - Feldenkreis);

    also a very small sample size, so there is not going to be much power statistically (u usually want at least 20 participants per sample group for this)

    and the data of patient's self-report was not assessed using a standardized measurement tool, but rather based on examiner's subjective interpretation of "qualitative interviews", meaning that operator bias could be a factor as well;

    not wanting to become a Medscape member, I was unable to get to the study via the provided link, so there may be things that I missed...
    You could use PubMed!
    Just type variations of taijiquan, tai chi chuan, etc and you will get quite a few trials as full documents.
    You could also check the background of 0.1Hz (6-10 breaths/minute) in its potential role in some movement therapies like taijiquan and qigong and even yoga

  14. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    You could use PubMed!
    Just type variations of taijiquan, tai chi chuan, etc and you will get quite a few trials as full documents.
    You could also check the background of 0.1Hz (6-10 breaths/minute) in its potential role in some movement therapies like taijiquan and qigong and even yoga
    I am very aware of Pubmed, and frequent it regularly (I get access to full articles in fact, not just abstracts, thanks to my MD wife);

    as for breathing, that's a whole other area of study, certainly one of significant relevance to movement...

  15. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    You could also check the background of 0.1Hz (6-10 breaths/minute) in its potential role in some movement therapies like taijiquan and qigong and even yoga
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    ....as for breathing, that's a whole other area of study, certainly one of significant relevance to movement...
    I am not trying to be a naysayer or rain on anyone's parade here.......okay I am......but I am pretending I am not so just play along please......

    It has been well established since the dawning of time that breathing is pretty much a necessity!!

    ...I'm just saying......you know?

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