Straight Form (Wah Lum)

[shuaichiao]

somehow I rather doubt that there is any truth to that

Actually that is where the name came from.

[shuaichiao]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...nelID=70463535

I hate ragging on peoples forms but when I did wah lum that was an intermediate form. How did someone that bad even get to learn that form?

[Frogman]

Ok, the double gwa choy is right after the double elbow… I had been doing it wrong I was doing a single gwa much like the second gwa before the kicks. I was thinking you were talking about double gwa similar to the end of first form, or seven mantis fist, “Yee Long carries the sun and moon.” So I found out it’s like in LOG only with a step. As for the no block that I’m sure of, no block after the step behind elbow high. Which is different then LOG, step behind elbow low. Variations in the movement yea ok, but not the technique, that’s why I had to go do some homework before putting my foot any further in my mouth.
Looking at the first half of SF and some of the CLF I’ve seen they do look strikingly similar, particularly the sequence above. I can not say one way or another if there’s some connection, I have to agree with Yao Sing. LKS was a traveler and could have picked up techniques from all over China.
2003, I remember that show and have the video, good stuff. It looked to me like you were just having too much fun.
So Yao, Hua Lin no more?

Thread Killer LOL!!!

[Corwyn]

Actually that is where the name came from.

I just have to call BullShido

I am freely admitting that I could be wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe this without SOME evidence. !

I mean REALLY - here is what you are saying. (the way I understand it)

You are claiming that a person who has trained for some 30+ years wat the time he came to the US, was picked as the Grand Master of a style and entrusted to carry on this system was basically so weak willed and indecisive that he allowed some beginner gweilo to alter the style ('cause really waht's the difference between changing the name of a form or changing the form?) that he is grand master of and responsible for because the beginner student couldn't bother to understand his accent!? REALLY?!

And what about all the Chinese practitioners of Wah Lum who were and are still alive in HK and China!? They didn't notice this change and didn't comment on it?
The way I understand Chinese culture is that something like this would be a TREMENDOUS loss of face to MC. MC would just let this go, make up some excuse to all the students and people in China and HK to cover this up (in other words LIE to cover it up)?

The Cantonese character for straight is 直 which is how it is written in the current handbook as well as in ones I've seen from the past.
the Cantonese character for street is 街 they look nothing alike and sound nothing alike.
Also one of the requirments for 8 level is to know Seven Poem Fist Form which is about a 1/3 of Straight form BUT you have to know it in Cantonese.
So MC changed the name of a beginner/intermediate form because americans cound't say/understand the cantonese name or his accesnt, but he requires that you know this in Cantonese!?. I guess by the time he got some students ready for this test he got some back bone

Again, please don't take my remarks as too flippant, but I am just having a hard time accepting this. You may not like this style or MC, but this seems to me to border on the insulting.

[Black Mantis]

As for the no block that I’m sure of, no block after the step behind elbow high.

Yeah, I was wrong about the block after the high elbow. It is an uppercut. I think I misinterpreted it when first learned the form. Thanks for the info.

Is there a "poem" associated with SF, 1st Form, LOG, LM, or 16 Hands?

[shuaichiao]

First neither straight or street was the original name. Street form was a nick name given to it in hong kong because it supposedly contained techniques good for street fighting.

Second the Chans English was bad back then and straight and street sound fairly similar with a Chinese accent so the students didn't realize they were changing the name and the Chans probably didn't realize that they were changing it either until after they had taught hundreds of students and most of their American assistant instructors were calling it straight form so that's how every one learned it.

Third in a more traditional system the mistake may have been corrected when it was figured out but the carriers of Wah Lum don't seem to care how the system gets passed down. I lost count of how many moves they changed in various forms because a handful of people couldn't do it right so they simplified the moves so every one could do it the same. Chan Pui has made up dozens of new forms since he's been in America so he can travel around and charge people money at seminars. Some are completely made up and others he took an existing form and changed a handful of moves and called it something new. He's never been worried about things getting changed.

When I first learned that form my sifu Nelson Chan, who happens to be Chan Pui's brother and the second most knowledgeable wah lum teacher in America, always called it street form but the two sifus he had helping out at his school keep calling it straight form. I asked him why and that's what he told me. I can't make you believe it but I haven't heard anybody else give any other explanations of where the name came from and I can't think of any reason why he would make something like that up, can you?

[Yao Sing]

"I lost count of how many moves they changed in various forms because a handful of people couldn't do it right so they simplified the moves so every one could do it the same. Chan Pui has made up dozens of new forms since he's been in America so he can travel around and charge people money at seminars."

While it's true that moves have been either removed or modified in the forms taught in Wah Lum I don't think the claim of making up forms since he's been here is correct.

Every year MC returns to China (used to be 2 trips each year now just 1) and during those trips it's my understanding that he was picking the brains and memory of his seniors. This would be the source of any new forms added to the system in recent years.

Now if Nelson states otherwise then who am I to argue but I know for a fact (been to China twice with him) that he meets up with these seniors while sending the students off somewhere else. It's entirely possible, and makes sense, that he would be gathering up what he can before these guys leave this world and it's lost forever.

It's my understanding that he was chosen to be the GM because he was the youngest and had the time to collect all this info from the seniors. LKS taught in Shajeng for awhile then left and is known to have taught in Vietnam eventually returning to Shajeng to teach again.

Because of this different people learned different things so the style was fragmented over the years. MC, in becoming the GM, was tasked with collecting as much as he could and assembling it in a comprehensive manner.

I was also told by MC that LKS actually had 2 schools in Shajeng and taught different material at each school. One was fight oriented while the other was geared towards performances and physical training. This further fragmented the material.

So to the outsiders this might look like he just pulls forms out of thin air, hence the accusations of just making up forms. Until MC speaks out publicly on the history of Wah Lum and his past experiences (a book someday?) it's mostly speculation.

All I know is all the claims of shady dealings and dishonesty by MC have no substance and have perfectly logical and realistic explanations. I've never caught him in any type of lie or half truth. Ask him directly and he'll give you an honest answer. Seems to me what happens is that nobody will directly ask then everyone goes off speculating.

He also has a good collection of manuscripts that he interprets so that's another possible source of new forms. So is the real name of Straight Form actually Street Form? I don't know, it could be but does it matter? Wah Lum has 6 forms that are just numbered instead of having a name. Apparently names aren't all that important to him.

Also on the made up forms issue, I've seen a few forms performed at the Wah Lum school in China and they definitely resemble the forms taught in the US. At most he's modified some (or all) of the forms which is perfectly legitimate for a GM to do although I personally would like to learn the originals.

[Yao Sing]

Sorry for the rant but my experience with Wah Lum and Master Chan doesn't fit with the accusations generally thrown about trying to put both in a bad light. I think most of the time there's a valid explanation without having to resort to claims of dishonesty and misconduct etc.


That's why I usually speak out with what I know even though I'm no longer associated with the organization. However, I could be wrong and he's just scamming everyone but I'll need to see more concrete evidence before I change my tune.

Changing the name of a form, either on purpose or by way of misunderstanding, is not a black mark against MC. Apparently he changed Bung Bo to Big Mantis, Iron Door Bolt to Little Open Gate, and Luan Jie has a different name in Wah Lum (although I don't know what it is).

What he is guilty of is not coming forth with historical information. I was hoping a book would come out filling in some of the gaps but so far nothing. Sooner or later someone will put out an interview with him shutting down all the negative speculation.

Origin of some of the forms with their original names would be a good question to ask in that interview.

[shuaichiao]

I'm not necessarily trying to put them in a bad light. I just don't think they are the most traditional style which some people are ok with but they constantly talk about tradition. As far as the forms go if a grand master wants to make up a form or change a form that's ok I guess but when they change forms just because a few people can't do it right I get a bit upset. Their translation of kung fu is hard work but if somebody has a problem with something they don't make them work hard at it they just change it to make it easy for them.

Another thing is when they changed cha fa to moi fa he went around teaching seminars on moi fa claiming it was something new. All he did was change the opening and closing bows so it followed the plum flower pattern on the ground. The body of the form didn't change at all. That would be fine if he said he was changing cha fa and this is how we do it now but he claimed it was a new form and 2/3 of the people who took the seminar thought they were paying to learn something new but instead learned a form they already knew. I won't even get into how the original name had meaning for what the form is supposed to teach and now it's just another generic plum flower form.

[Yao Sing]

I agree with you about making the forms easier, I'd prefer to learn the original moves and keep working until I get it right. At least give me the chance before substituting an easier way. I've had my own list complaints and that one of them.

I've seen Basic Stick as it was when it was brought here and it's twice as long and more complex. Unfortunately it's his decision what and how to teach them so you have to take what you can get.

As for the Moi Fa seminar I'm not familiar with that one so I can't comment but my beef with the seminars is that they're always geared to the low end to get the largest turnout. Plus they're only part of the form which isn't too bad except that the rest of the form is never offered at a later date. Also more advanced seminars are rarely offered.

I had an advantage there being a student of MC at the Temple I got to learn the rest of these seminar forms later on along with a few other advanced/instructor students.

[yu shan]

If you guys dont mind, I would like to chime in. My experience with WL started with Shifu Art D`Agostino (Tampa school) and later handed off to Sean Cochran when he moved to Tampa and opened a school. IMO, both of these men where outstanding with there Wah Lum forms or any other kung fu form for that matter. Whenever I would visit the Temple for whatever reason I noticed the temple students doing forms differant than the way I was taught, and unfortunately at that time it was frustrating to me. Now years later I have learned that there are truly differant ways of playing the forms. Some masters know so many versions that they teach differant groups coming thru differant ways. Maybe a way of remembering and conservation of the form.

It is commendable of Chan Pui to meet with his elders to learn and collect as much about Hua Lin as he can. If he has a collection of manuscripts, very possible for all the forms that pop up along the way.

You guys all have great points for sure. Personally I did not like learning by seminars. I would and prefer to learn a form slowly, just give me a little and let me practice. Plus there is much more to forms than just doing the form, there is all of the content with in the form. But we wont go there.

Yao is a good source for Orlando temple training over the years. The Boston guys go way back to the early days.

Oh one more thing, I have had the pleasure to view "old" WL forms on video, man some of these forms are absolutely outrageous, does he not teach these anymore?

[yu shan]

Thread killer has struck again...

[shuaichiao]

Don't really think there was much left to say

[ironfenix]

Jim,
which forms were outrageous?

also iron door bolt is little open gate? I thought it was little mantis.

[ironfenix]

I still have much to learn master (thread) killer. I am still on the 35 chamber.

I heard CCK Pai An was called little open gate. To the moves resemble WL by any chance?