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Thread: Chi Sao; donít over work the mind (strong stance)Ö

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    Chi Sao; donít over work the mind (strong stance)Ö

    Here is a question that someone asked me on my site…

    How can one begin or start too understand forward sensitivity, and stay very relaxed when energy is being pushed towards you, as you explained in an article on your website?

    First of all, you must understand the concept behind what you’re trying too accomplish… Well, in the case of chi sao you should have had that understood in the SLT system (don chi sao)…

    If you’re having trouble staying soft when playing chi sao, I suggest that you really begin to explore the don chi sao within your wing chun structure, if the mechanics of the don chi sao never promotes redirection through complete softness and sensitivity, then I suggest try another structure until you can find a way too naturalize or redirected energy through complete softness and sensitivity…

    The main thing is too make sure that the mind is not over worked, meaning that your overall structure dealing with forward sensitivity must stay connected to the your stance, and your upper and lower extremities must stay connected to the floor through your stance…

    If there’s no strong connection as I mention just above, then the mind will become over worked and the hands will become tense or tight, then one will begin too fall off the track or the road that guides his structure directly to the right offensive and defensive line that needs to be occupied when under pressure, and if one just cant find it, then its a structure problem…

    Your chi sao structure must fit and work within your stance, just as the gears works within a watch, if the gears do not fit correctly within the watch, then one will never begin to understand what time it is… The concept of understanding true wing chun attacks is through timing and having a strong connection to the floor, by connecting the upper and lower extremities through you stance, it will help promote good softness and forward sensitivity; hence, very good defensive structure with very little thought pattern…

    The main key as far as the Woo Fai Ching system dealing with chi sao, is the fook sao… If one cannot master the understanding or ideal dealing with the fook sao, then he or she will always have trouble dealing with double line sensitivity, because in the start of you chi sao studies the fook sao is always misunderstood… Why? Because the fook sao do nothing but ride or should cling to structure, and the other side or arm cycles from tan to bong; in other words that side have something too do, in which helps keeps the mind pre-occupied while almost losing the ideal or mechanics dealing with the fook sao… Just master of try to understand the mechanics of the fook sao through total softness and forward sensitivity, then I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for…

    The more one can control his fook sao through good forward sensitivity and line control, the softer and stronger his overall chi sao structure will become…


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 04-09-2008 at 11:13 AM.

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    Lop-Sao grabbing hand

    How do you use the Lop-Sao in Chi Sao? When is it best to use and not to use and why so?
    我听见,我忘记;我看见,我记住;我做,我了解。
    I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I understand.

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    The lop sao is a funny thing, because its really good in giving someone instant gratification of achievement (Hey look what I can do!), a lop sao attack can turn into a bunch of superficial moves if your not careful…

    The reason why I don’t use the lop sao as a offensive measure often is; when attacking with a lop sao and too make it a money shot as well, you have to have great timing too pull it off, which is all good; but it’s a lot of work epically for the lazy mind… When having good line theory understood and in action means that your forward energy is working well, so there’s no reason why one should use a lop sao too change a line or whatever, you really don’t need to lop, epically if the lops your doing crosses your hands over each other…

    When making a lop; such as the bong lop or lop cycle, the hands crosses over each other for just a moment, if one has good timing one can trap his or her opponent just by punching over the top of their opponents lopping hand or using a bil jee thrush just barely touching their chest with a small but subtle movement, and while using lop sao attacks you’re actually making openings within your structure, because if one has good timing you could actually get hit right in the middle of that movement…

    You may said; ok then, what’s the deal with the lop: The lop sao is used too change the line of attack in the Woo W.C system, but we don’t make or force the line too happen when we lop, we change the line when it comes to us (opponents attacks or forward energy), and with good timing you can do that right in the middle of your opponents attack, but while learning the lop sao attacks, we execute it the opposite way (attacking) too gain good understanding or ideal of that particular lop technique…

    I was taught the best time to lop is when under attack, not when bridge contact is made because; if your upper and lower extremities are connected to the floor through a very good stance, then you should already have good defensive position through proper line understanding, why mess it up by running away from bridge contact or going to the outside, all one has too do is step in and jam or wedge your intent, when you break chi sao structure for a lop attack…

    Take care,


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 04-14-2008 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    The lop sao is a funny thing, because its really good in giving someone instant gratification of achievement (Hey look what I can do!), a lop sao attack can turn into a bunch of superficial moves if your not careful…

    The reason why I don’t use the lop sao as a offensive measure often is; when attacking with a lop sao and too make it a money shot as well, you have to have great timing too pull it off, which is all good; but it’s a lot of work epically for the lazy mind… When having good line theory understood and in action means that your forward energy is working well, so there’s no reason why one should use a lop sao too change a line or whatever, you really don’t need to lop, epically if the lops your doing crosses your hands over each other…

    When making a lop; such as the bong lop or lop cycle, the hands crosses over each other for just a moment, if one has good timing one can trap his or her opponent just by punching over the top of their opponents lopping hand or using a bil jee thrush just barely touching their chest with a small but subtle movement, and while using lop sao attacks you’re actually making openings within your structure, because if one has good timing you could actually get hit right in the middle of that movement…

    You may said; ok then, what’s the deal with the lop: The lop sao is used too change the line of attack in the Woo W.C system, but we don’t make or force the line too happen when we lop, we change the line when it comes to us (opponents attacks or forward energy), and with good timing you can do that right in the middle of your opponents attack, but while learning the lop sao attacks, we execute it the opposite way (attacking) too gain good understanding or ideal of that particular lop technique…

    I was taught the best time to lop is when under attack, not when bridge contact is made because; if your upper and lower extremities are connected to the floor through a very good stance, then you should already have good defensive position through proper line understanding, why mess it up by running away from bridge contact or going to the outside, all one has too do is step in and jam or wedge your intent, when you break chi sao structure for a lop attack…

    Take care,


    Ali Rahim.
    What is your approach to Chi Sao as regards the mobility of the stance. The way I was taught to chi sao was to be mobile in my stance. That is by rolling the stance, steping in using the angles and walking through the opponent and chasing him as an opening presented itself. In turn the opponent having taken hits would establish a bridge and continuen the chi sao without stopping.

    It is important to note that we were told not to step back no matter what, but instead to absorb the incoming attack by rolling or angling. Stepping back was a big no,no.

    Is this a similar approach to what you teach/practice?
    Last edited by HardWork8; 04-15-2008 at 03:30 PM.

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    I like this post

    You obviously know what you’re talking about, and you’re right on point… We don’t step backwards also... Only in training, so one can get the feel of stepping without breaking chi sao contact... One should try to step one time and no more then two when working this chi sao drill... We will take one step back with just one leg; too adsorb the on coming force if we have too, the front leg is there too reminded the back leg too come back home or back to the front line, and we follow what goes but never chase our opponent, when they run let them run… I would like to think that you meant the word chase in the same terms as follow…

    Sometime we settle for that one step for absorption, most of the time its more then what we need…
    Wow, you’re really on your way, keep up the good training…


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 04-16-2008 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    You obviously know what you’re talking about, and you’re right on point… We don’t step backwards also... Only in training, so one can get the feel of stepping without breaking chi sao contact...
    We are told not to step back even in combat, as this would meand giving ground to the opponent who can end up steamrolling us. Of course, there are times when one just has to make "a strategic withdrawal"


    Quote Originally Posted by Ali.R
    One should try to step one time and no more then two when working this chi sao drill...
    Sifu never gave us a limit of no more than two steps, but I understand what you are saying,as usuaslly by the second or 3rd step the training partner usually establishes a "new" bridge and flow of the Chi Sao continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali.R
    We will take one step back with just one leg; too adsorb the on coming force
    That is exactly what we are taught to do when we are overwhelmed. That is to take one step back, gain control of the central line and continue to "roll".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali.R
    if we have too[/B], the front leg is there too reminded the back leg too come back home or back to the front line, and we follow what goes but never chase our opponent, when they run let them run…
    I believe that I used the wrong term when I said "chase". What I should have said was continue striking contact while following the opponent. Of course, when contact is lost and the opponent is out of range,then the "chase" stops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali.R
    Wow, you’re really on your way, keep up the good training…
    Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Unfortunately for now most of my Wing Chun training is on my own as I have temporarily changed my country of residence. I do however train in an excellent non-Wing Chun school here in london.

    Fortunately, I will be seeing my Wing Chun sifu who will be visiting the UK to give a seminar on Siu Lam Wing Chun. I am looking forward to training with him every day while he is here.

    There is a good chance that in a few months time I will move back to Brasil and resume my full Wing Chun training.

    By the way, what is your lineage of Wing Chun?
    Last edited by HardWork8; 04-16-2008 at 10:19 AM.

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    red boat magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by HardWork8 View Post
    .

    By the way, what is your lineage of Wing Chun?

    Hey, mane...We have been updating the website and info on our lineage can be found right HERE. Look under Woo Fai Ching System and go to the Lineage link on the pulldown menu or History of ...Woo System.

    Thanks for asking.

    ~Cg~
    我听见,我忘记;我看见,我记住;我做,我了解。
    I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graychuan View Post
    Hey, mane...We have been updating the website and info on our lineage can be found right HERE. Look under Woo Fai Ching System and go to the Lineage link on the pulldown menu or History of ...Woo System.

    Thanks for asking.

    ~Cg~
    Thank you for the link, I will check it out very soon.

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    I like what youíve done with the site Chris, great work!!!


    Ali Rahim.

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    Here is another question that I’ve gotten from my site.

    Any tricks to controlling center in chi sao without attacking from the outside?
    There are really no tricks but...

    The centerline suff you asked for: While playing Chi Sao think about the vertices of your defensive triangle: in other words spread your chi sao structure a little wider therefore your victors plays off your chest nipples (line up the wrist to your chest nipples) or play off the heart, this way you can have your imaginary vertices of your chi sao structure behind your opponent when stepping and attacking, and your defensive structure will become much stronger…

    In other words; play your chi sao structure through him and not at him…

    Take care,


    Ali Rahim.

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    Talking

    Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stayÖ

    When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)Ö


    Ali Rahim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stayÖ

    When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)Ö


    Ali Rahim.
    I believe that this freeing the mind is sometimes referred to as just "being" rather than doing things consciously during combat. It is one of the highest levels of kung fu practice.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…

    When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)…


    Ali Rahim.
    I agree with what you're saying, as far as spontaneous reaction goes in chi sao. Reptitive movements previously trained in chi sao practice help the current student to employ movements in a non-thinking manner. The japanese call the idea of a clear head "mind of no mind". Having a clear mind and just acting without thinking. But this deals with just the technique levels. "Just react"

    The strategic and tactical levels which come first should always be evaluated and re-evaluated, even mid fight where necessary. Fighting is a chess game, while on a technique level things should be spontaneous, from a strategic and tactical level you've got to be thinking ahead.

    Just my opinion.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardWork8 View Post
    I believe that this freeing the mind is sometimes referred to as just "being" rather than doing things consciously during combat. It is one of the highest levels of kung fu practice.
    This is true, even when one is coming into knowledge the ideal of receiving it must be free as well… Just trust in you and bring this knowledge too life for what it is (as taught to you ), and not for what you want it to be, through deviation (self-gravitation)…

    The mind is what builds a warrior and his grace under pressure is what releases it, not his might, for there is always one mightier then you, but true knowledge and understanding (skill) will always stand strong if the mind is not weak, (grace under pressure) and that’s with anything in life…

    Take care,


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 05-15-2008 at 05:17 PM.

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    Should be spontaneousÖ

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    I agree with what you're saying, as far as spontaneous reaction goes in chi sao. Reptitive movements previously trained in chi sao practice help the current student to employ movements in a non-thinking manner. The japanese call the idea of a clear head "mind of no mind". Having a clear mind and just acting without thinking. But this deals with just the technique levels. "Just react"

    The strategic and tactical levels which come first should always be evaluated and re-evaluated, even mid fight where necessary. Fighting is a chess game, while on a technique level things should be spontaneous, from a strategic and tactical level you've got to be thinking ahead.

    Just my opinion.
    Should be spontaneous… That’s if we let it, and keep self out of the way (deviation and physical intent)… Once it’s understood , and that’s if we understand it and will just let it be, while keeping your mind free and clear...


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 05-16-2008 at 07:14 AM.

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