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Thread: Thoughts on TCMA in MMA

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    But but but....what if it spreads???
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    Oivey !!
    Isn't this one of the signs of the apocolypse ?
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Quoted for truth.
    no its not the ring that makes your kung fu not work. the black belt I spoke of in my original post, the guy who has been successful in MMA, his skills came from kung fu but in order to adapt to MMA he had to narrow his focus to the techniques and methods which are proven effective in the MMA format, while many techniques have to be let go of.
    Last edited by Rojcewicz; 04-10-2008 at 03:09 PM.

  3. #33
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    By your own statement there was nothing "kung fu" about the way he fights, and he won his fight by submission. So yeah... his skills came from kung fu, cuz we all know how effective Northern Shaolin submission techniques are... riiiight.

    I agree with you on one point: its not the ring that makes kung fu not work. Much of kung fu just doesn't work that well, period... at least not nearly as fluidly and functionally as modern MA training.

    There is NOTHING about MMA rules that negate the principles and structures of kung fu styles, and its just comical how so many practitioners of 'traditional' styles still want to cling to the rationalization of, "If you can't poke the eyes or kick the ballz, then its not kung fu, because kung fu is streetfighting." An MMA trained fighter with an ounce of common sense will poke the eyes or crush the nuts in a street fight (if he has to) just as much as any kung fu guy. Its not like it takes 20 yrs of horse stance and chi-gung training to figure out how to aim an inside leg thai kick at the gonads or stick your fingers in someone's eyes.

    Do MMA rules forbid punching, kicking, elbows, standing joint locks, sweeps, trapping, sticking hands, etc? No. Yet still, kung fu guys have only either gotten their a$$es handed to them, or have fought using methods that in no way resemble any kung fu structure. How in the world can you attribute that all to the mere fact that MMA doesn't allow dirty techniques? You can't, it just doesn't make any kind of sense whatsoever. What you can attribute it to is the repeatedly demonstrated fact that modern MMA training derived from the core styles (BJJ/mixed grappling, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai based kickboxing) is plain and simply functionally far superior as an unarmed fighting method than styles like kung fu. Now I'm not saying there's nothing of any real value in kung fu. IMO, an open minded and intelligent MA'ist can find something unique and valuable in any style in existence. What I am saying is that overall, if you want to develop functional fighting skills, MMA is better...plain and simple. You can disagree if you want using whatever rationalizations you like, but you'll find yourself at odds with all the empirical evidence you can find.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    This is partially true, but not 100%.

    IMO, no one is 'tougher' than boxers. But you put a good, tough boxer in an MMA fight he will lose more often than not. Although training methods are quite important, you need to train in effective styles for striking, grappling, and the clinch.
    I often wonder if a wold class boxer, could handle himself in MMA if he cross trains in a limited way. If he becomes competent in defending against leg attacks, and clinching. If he a has a decent wrestling ability. Sure he stops being just a boxer, but I think he could be a strong contender.

    Most of the top guys are better at one area or another. A boxer is is better at one area. Mayweather could easily make a transition if he trains correctly.

    JMO

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonzRage View Post
    By your own statement there was nothing "kung fu" about the way he fights, and he won his fight by submission. So yeah... his skills came from kung fu, cuz we all know how effective Northern Shaolin submission techniques are... riiiight.

    I agree with you on one point: its not the ring that makes kung fu not work. Much of kung fu just doesn't work that well, period... at least not nearly as fluidly and functionally as modern MA training.

    There is NOTHING about MMA rules that negate the principles and structures of kung fu styles, and its just comical how so many practitioners of 'traditional' styles still want to cling to the rationalization of, "If you can't poke the eyes or kick the ballz, then its not kung fu, because kung fu is streetfighting." An MMA trained fighter with an ounce of common sense will poke the eyes or crush the nuts in a street fight (if he has to) just as much as any kung fu guy. Its not like it takes 20 yrs of horse stance and chi-gung training to figure out how to aim an inside leg thai kick at the gonads or stick your fingers in someone's eyes.

    Do MMA rules forbid punching, kicking, elbows, standing joint locks, sweeps, trapping, sticking hands, etc? No. Yet still, kung fu guys have only either gotten their a$$es handed to them, or have fought using methods that in no way resemble any kung fu structure. How in the world can you attribute that all to the mere fact that MMA doesn't allow dirty techniques? You can't, it just doesn't make any kind of sense whatsoever. What you can attribute it to is the repeatedly demonstrated fact that modern MMA training derived from the core styles (BJJ/mixed grappling, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai based kickboxing) is plain and simply functionally far superior as an unarmed fighting method than styles like kung fu. Now I'm not saying there's nothing of any real value in kung fu. IMO, an open minded and intelligent MA'ist can find something unique and valuable in any style in existence. What I am saying is that overall, if you want to develop functional fighting skills, MMA is better...plain and simple. You can disagree if you want using whatever rationalizations you like, but you'll find yourself at odds with all the empirical evidence you can find.
    I didn't say anything about dirty techniques, although nearly all of Brazilian jujitsu is useless if someone is targeting your eyes and balls and his buddies mite stomp your head, its true that anyone can do that. Your right that the techniques you listed are legal and could be used, but what you dont realize is that a GOOD Kung Fu school will teach you everything a MMA teacher can (excluding jujitsu). How to punch, kick, wrestle, and defend correctly, but you will also learn an incredible amount of techniques which a MMA instructor will not teach as they are not necessary or irrelevent in an environment where gloves are worn, the floor is padded, and rules exist. Sifu Carlos, the black belt who tapped the guy out, simply had to place his focus on the most effective methods of fighting in MMA, meaning that he worked more ground skills, and he has been extremely successful. In his own words, "all fighting is the same", a kung fu practitioner who cant strike and defend well after extensive training is simply not doing right or physically incapable.

    and another thing about kung fu "structure". All stances and drills are for the training of coordination, strength, speed, and other attributes, and have nothing to do with the way a fighter looks, a good kung fu fighter will "look" the same in the ring as a practitioner of many other styles.

    Lastly, MMA is "better" at teaching fighting skills? The reason it look so much better is that when you give an example of what MMA looks like you point at world class, professionals fighters. Just because most skilled kung fu teachers are not known beyond their schools does not mean they don't exist. I've been doing northern shaolin for about 2 years and my friend shawn has been doing Muay Thai for about the same, but when we spar i generally win, not because he doesn't work hard enough at what he does, but because he lacks the fundamentals of structure, the foundation, something I think he would learn much more effectively if he took a break from pounding on pads and bags and simply sat in a high horse stance, hands chambered, and just concentrated solely on the motion of his strikes.
    Last edited by Rojcewicz; 04-10-2008 at 07:11 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Oivey !!
    Isn't this one of the signs of the apocolypse ?
    It must be! And they're on to us, not only have they evolved to learn our only advantage....but they're technologically superior!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNBGLlgEQe0

    No Its Not Awesome!!

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rojcewicz View Post
    I didn't say anything about dirty techniques, although nearly all of Brazilian jujitsu is useless if someone is targeting your eyes and balls and his buddies mite stomp your head, its true that anyone can do that.
    while nothing can be done about his friends (other than your friends watching you back). The whole "dirty tactics" destroys nearly all "Brazilian" JJ isn't really a smart argument.
    Go look at all the original Gracie matches on tape. I seem to remember allot of cheap shots. The fact will always remain that If I have you in a dominant position, the most you maybe could do is bite me. If I have you pined properly in a variety of positions, I can fish hook, eye "poke" and many more things , while you can't. Thats why its called a dominant position. If your going to bring up the "guard" and how its not a smart position, and how you can still attack with power.. you are 100% correct. Thats why people use the rubber guard. A properly controlled opponent should have very little he can do. That includes "dirty" tactics.
    Is everyone going to be able to control every opponent.. no.


    All that being said most people have friends, and who would want to risk rolling around in a bar? That doesn't mean I wouldn't do some quick GnP from Knee on belly or mount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojcewicz View Post
    a GOOD Kung Fu school will teach you everything a MMA teacher can (excluding jujitsu)
    I think it really depends on the teacher and the school. I know a few "Kung fu" teachers that could fit that bill but they are not the norm.

    I didn't see the submission that was used by the "Kung Fu" Fighter. Is this a submission from a Northern Shaolin form?

    MMA is a nice sport, but so is hockey.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by monji112000 View Post
    while nothing can be done about his friends (other than your friends watching you back). The whole "dirty tactics" destroys nearly all "Brazilian" JJ isn't really a smart argument.
    Go look at all the original Gracie matches on tape. I seem to remember allot of cheap shots. The fact will always remain that If I have you in a dominant position, the most you maybe could do is bite me. If I have you pined properly in a variety of positions, I can fish hook, eye "poke" and many more things , while you can't. Thats why its called a dominant position. If your going to bring up the "guard" and how its not a smart position, and how you can still attack with power.. you are 100% correct. Thats why people use the rubber guard. A properly controlled opponent should have very little he can do. That includes "dirty" tactics.
    Is everyone going to be able to control every opponent.. no.


    All that being said most people have friends, and who would want to risk rolling around in a bar? That doesn't mean I wouldn't do some quick GnP from Knee on belly or mount.


    I think it really depends on the teacher and the school. I know a few "Kung fu" teachers that could fit that bill but they are not the norm.

    I didn't see the submission that was used by the "Kung Fu" Fighter. Is this a submission from a Northern Shaolin form?

    MMA is a nice sport, but so is hockey.
    I agree, about the dominant position and the submission he used was a standing guillotine, pretty standard for most martial arts.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Rojcewicz View Post
    I agree, about the dominant position and the submission he used was a standing guillotine, pretty standard for most martial arts.
    Ok.

    I remember my days at ____ traditional Kung Fu school. All the key locks we learned... the iron toad rnc and the flying squirrel arm bar and triangle choke. To be honest I did learn a basic standing arm lock, that would probably work. Its the one Aoki did in some MMA fight.
    Last edited by monji112000; 04-10-2008 at 08:01 PM.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rojcewicz View Post
    I didn't say anything about dirty techniques, although nearly all of Brazilian jujitsu is useless if someone is targeting your eyes and balls and his buddies mite stomp your head,
    we've stepped in a time machine and gone back to 1993

    please go to a BJJ school, challenge them, tell them you want to be able to bite and eye gouge, they will agree (I assure you), then report back the results....
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  11. #41
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    You must admit that intent is a major component of winning a fight. An advanced level practitioner would not have an urge to endanger themself by competing in a sport or having intent to hurt someone. MMA fighters are very tough and dangerous guys, the only way I feel I could defeat one would be to use deadly force. Why would I want to put myself in such an ugly situation ? It is for the young aggressive inexperienced youth or the mal adjusted criminal mind.
    I compare it to the combat soldier who starts out being gung ho, but after all the killing finds the value of life and peace.
    An advanced level TMA evolves into meditation, healing arts, etc. and that does not mean they would not have what it takes to apply their skills.
    Where did MMA come from ? and simplicity is the essence.
    You may flame away, but I am entitled to my opinion. I know from experience that my TMA work on the street. And only the very best of fighters will "look" like they are using MA during a fight, that is if you don't blink.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by greendragon View Post

    An advanced level practitioner would not have an urge to endanger themself by competing in a sport or having intent to hurt someone. MMA fighters are very tough and dangerous guys, the only way I feel I could defeat one would be to use deadly force. Why would I want to put myself in such an ugly situation ?
    Denile, it's not just a river in Egypt
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  13. #43
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    Sifu Ross, respectfully, what percentage of your fighting skill comes from Lama KF (TMA) and how much from MMA ?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Are you suggesting that every gym/school within a given style trains the same?

    Exactly ! Go to a boxing gym, they probably train pretty much the same, BJJ same thing, I would wager all effective styles do, its called training how you fight, TMA seems to have lost that somewhere, I would like to know if this is accepted in the TMA community or we are still labouring under a delusion that the style cannot police itself ? You want to police the training in your system then make the training work, not in theory but in practice. I have to ask myself, do I train in TCMA because I think it works or because I happen to like the training ? At the moment I am forced to think its the latter

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianUK View Post
    Exactly ! Go to a boxing gym, they probably train pretty much the same, BJJ same thing, I would wager all effective styles do, its called training how you fight, TMA seems to have lost that somewhere, I would like to know if this is accepted in the TMA community or we are still labouring under a delusion that the style cannot police itself ? You want to police the training in your system then make the training work, not in theory but in practice. I have to ask myself, do I train in TCMA because I think it works or because I happen to like the training ? At the moment I am forced to think its the latter
    The Chinese masters I've worked with only teach what students have the initiative to work on their own. If you just come to class, do your horse stance, do your forms, and go, that's all you learn. We got sparring instruction only when we really pushed for it, to the point of organizing sparring on our own.

    As a result, the majority of the students produced by both teachers don't fight. I never said it was the perfect approach.

    Your mileage may vary.

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