Thoughts on TCMA in MMA

[Rojcewicz]

I've been practicing Northern Shaolin Long Fist with Sifu Kevin
Miller in Memphis TN for about two years now, and, just reasently,
i visited his masters school in Chicago where one of the long time black belts has been training for MMA fighting.

The black belt has won his first fight, tapping the guy out 30 seconds, and he is an incredibly skilled teacher to work with. Thinking about how the black belt fought when we were sparring, how he looked just like any other skilled MMA fighter in terms of technique, I began to think about why their was nothing particularly "kung fu" about the way he fights.

The answer i've come to is that the many styles of kung fu, excluding Sanda and contemporary wushu, were developed for no rule street fighting , im not saying that kickboxing, MMA, and other sport based combat forms are useless on the streets (many sport fighters would woop poorly trained TMA's). What im saying is that the many techniques and options of kung fu are based in a format where their is no right way, no set environment, no rules, meaning that their is no way to come to a perfect method of fighting as the context of a street fight is never the same.

In MMA one fights in a set environment, with set rules, what this creates is an almost permanent context, whats called a constant in science. This means that with every MMA bout, just like an experiment, the techniques and methods of the practitioners can be modified to better suit the specific context of an MMA cage, rule set, etc.

the conclusion is that a well trained Kung Fu practitioner, like the black belt I spoke of, can have great success but not without adaption. kickboxing (or muay thai)/ jujitsu (or wrestling), combination has already been found to be arguably the most effective combination for an MMA environment and rule set. I don't believe that one will ever see the wide rage of Kung Fu techniques and methods on display in the MMA venue; not because they are not effective, but because, unlike the street, the MMA environment offers a set context where a perfect combination of techniques and methods can exist and one must adopt in order to succeed

[cranky old man]

well said my man

[monji112000]

I've been practicing Northern Shaolin Long Fist with Sifu Kevin
Miller in Memphis TN for about two years now, and, just reasently,
i visited his masters school in Chicago where one of the long time black belts has been training for MMA fighting. The black belt has won his first fight, tapping the guy out 30 seconds,

....stuff........

the conclusion is that a well trained Kung Fu practitioner, like the black belt I spoke of, can have great success but not without adaption.

.....more stuff....

He trains northern shaolin and he tapped someone in a MMA fight? Don't tell he he pull some old school standing Chin na. Remember you said WITHOUT ADAPTION.
Honestly I'm willing to bet money that if you posted the clip of him winning, its going to look like any other fight. So what Northern Shaolin submission did he use? If you say... rnc,guilitine, key-lock,armbar, triangle or any none Northern Shaolin technique your going to contradict yourself.

Its not as easy as it looks. Just becouse you can spar decently with your friends doesn't mean you should compete in MMA. If they had some type of amature MMA then that may be a good idea.

No matter how you look at it, you going into the fight with a massive disadvantage without basic ground skills. Someone with only a few months of training is probably going to smoke you if it goes to the ground.

What about conditioning? I think conditioning is the most important factor not what style you train. Give me a crappy TKD fighter with basic ground skills and amazing conditioning.. he probably would do pretty good at a low level MMA fight.
Take some TMA guy with good sparring skills, and no ground game, and average person conditioning... Hope you have good medical insurance.

Its fun to watch, and even to train a little but..

JMO

as a general rule of thumb if you have a Black belt in any style other than BJJ/JUDO.. you probably don't want to do MMA. Who has belts anyway these days?

[Rojcewicz]

I said he DID have to adapt in order to do well in MMA, and the need for a ground game in MMA is not something I question. The statement was that the MMA venue, like all sport venues, is a set context, a set system of rules (with some variation) and a set environment which means there can exist a more "right" method of fighting in MMA; unlike reality fighting which has too many variables to determine a "right" way. A Kung Fu practitioner can have all the skills necessary (sometimes more so) but will always have to adopt the MMA fighting method to be successful.

[monji112000]

I said he DID have to adapt in order to do well in MMA, and the need for a ground game in MMA is not something I question. The statement was that the MMA venue, like all sport venues, is a set context, a set system of rules (with some variation) and a set environment which means there can exist a more "right" method of fighting in MMA; unlike reality fighting which has too many variables to determine a "right" way. A Kung Fu practitioner can have all the skills necessary (sometimes more so) but will always have to adopt the MMA fighting method to be successful.

again the style you come from plays less of a role in MMA vrs conditioning, training, and being "well rounded". If by kung fu you mean Sanda/san shou sure. If on the other hand you mean something like what you see in a wushu competition, its not to realistic. 90% of what you would see isn't applicable. We can play semantics on whether they are or not. The basic universal strikes are found in probably every style. Outside of those basic universal strikes, its not going to be practical. The underlying truth again isn't that I come from a "kung fu" background. its am I prepared for the fight. Given the average "kung fu" training the answer is probably no. Just watch MMA, you will quickly find that everyone comes from TMA. Does Bas do things the way Cro cop or Chuck does? What about
GSP? or fill in the blank.

Everyone who is into MMA knows that no "right" way exists. Fads exists, and they come and go. MMA is filled with a variety of fighters in both areas of standup and ground fighting. Everyone trains some version of MT and some version of BJJ. If they don't it "looks" like these styles. Sanda "looks" like MT. CSW or whatever "looks" like BJJ. What I mean by looks is that it has similar techniques, training methods and tactics. Yet They are all obviously vastly different.

[Ravenshaw]

The answer i've come to is that the many styles of kung fu, excluding Sanda and contemporary wushu, were developed for no rule street fighting , im not saying that kickboxing, MMA, and other sport based combat forms are useless on the streets (many sport fighters would woop poorly trained TMA's). What im saying is that the many techniques and options of kung fu are based in a format where their is no right way, no set environment, no rules, meaning that their is no way to come to a perfect method of fighting as the context of a street fight is never the same.

This is mere theory.

If your kung fu works, the ring doesn't magically make it not work.

[SifuAbel]

Its too bad. Monji here only seems to see the outer skin of things in a very superficial way.

I would actually like to see a clip of what this guy's Si-Hing is doing.

90% of what you would see isn't applicable..........

........in your view. And only to the small limits of YOUR knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have said this often, the RULE SET will dictate the "look" of any fight.

[1bad65]

If your kung fu works, the ring doesn't magically make it not work.

Quoted for truth.

[Rojcewicz]

Quoted for truth.

no its not the ring that makes your kung fu not work. the black belt I spoke of in my original post, the guy who has been successful in MMA, his skills came from kung fu but in order to adapt to MMA he had to narrow his focus to the techniques and methods which are proven effective in the MMA format, while many techniques have to be let go of.

[DragonzRage]

By your own statement there was nothing "kung fu" about the way he fights, and he won his fight by submission. So yeah... his skills came from kung fu, cuz we all know how effective Northern Shaolin submission techniques are... riiiight.

I agree with you on one point: its not the ring that makes kung fu not work. Much of kung fu just doesn't work that well, period... at least not nearly as fluidly and functionally as modern MA training.

There is NOTHING about MMA rules that negate the principles and structures of kung fu styles, and its just comical how so many practitioners of 'traditional' styles still want to cling to the rationalization of, "If you can't poke the eyes or kick the ballz, then its not kung fu, because kung fu is streetfighting." An MMA trained fighter with an ounce of common sense will poke the eyes or crush the nuts in a street fight (if he has to) just as much as any kung fu guy. Its not like it takes 20 yrs of horse stance and chi-gung training to figure out how to aim an inside leg thai kick at the gonads or stick your fingers in someone's eyes.

Do MMA rules forbid punching, kicking, elbows, standing joint locks, sweeps, trapping, sticking hands, etc? No. Yet still, kung fu guys have only either gotten their a$$es handed to them, or have fought using methods that in no way resemble any kung fu structure. How in the world can you attribute that all to the mere fact that MMA doesn't allow dirty techniques? You can't, it just doesn't make any kind of sense whatsoever. What you can attribute it to is the repeatedly demonstrated fact that modern MMA training derived from the core styles (BJJ/mixed grappling, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai based kickboxing) is plain and simply functionally far superior as an unarmed fighting method than styles like kung fu. Now I'm not saying there's nothing of any real value in kung fu. IMO, an open minded and intelligent MA'ist can find something unique and valuable in any style in existence. What I am saying is that overall, if you want to develop functional fighting skills, MMA is better...plain and simple. You can disagree if you want using whatever rationalizations you like, but you'll find yourself at odds with all the empirical evidence you can find.

[Rojcewicz]

By your own statement there was nothing "kung fu" about the way he fights, and he won his fight by submission. So yeah... his skills came from kung fu, cuz we all know how effective Northern Shaolin submission techniques are... riiiight.

I agree with you on one point: its not the ring that makes kung fu not work. Much of kung fu just doesn't work that well, period... at least not nearly as fluidly and functionally as modern MA training.

There is NOTHING about MMA rules that negate the principles and structures of kung fu styles, and its just comical how so many practitioners of 'traditional' styles still want to cling to the rationalization of, "If you can't poke the eyes or kick the ballz, then its not kung fu, because kung fu is streetfighting." An MMA trained fighter with an ounce of common sense will poke the eyes or crush the nuts in a street fight (if he has to) just as much as any kung fu guy. Its not like it takes 20 yrs of horse stance and chi-gung training to figure out how to aim an inside leg thai kick at the gonads or stick your fingers in someone's eyes.

Do MMA rules forbid punching, kicking, elbows, standing joint locks, sweeps, trapping, sticking hands, etc? No. Yet still, kung fu guys have only either gotten their a$$es handed to them, or have fought using methods that in no way resemble any kung fu structure. How in the world can you attribute that all to the mere fact that MMA doesn't allow dirty techniques? You can't, it just doesn't make any kind of sense whatsoever. What you can attribute it to is the repeatedly demonstrated fact that modern MMA training derived from the core styles (BJJ/mixed grappling, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai based kickboxing) is plain and simply functionally far superior as an unarmed fighting method than styles like kung fu. Now I'm not saying there's nothing of any real value in kung fu. IMO, an open minded and intelligent MA'ist can find something unique and valuable in any style in existence. What I am saying is that overall, if you want to develop functional fighting skills, MMA is better...plain and simple. You can disagree if you want using whatever rationalizations you like, but you'll find yourself at odds with all the empirical evidence you can find.

I didn't say anything about dirty techniques, although nearly all of Brazilian jujitsu is useless if someone is targeting your eyes and balls and his buddies mite stomp your head, its true that anyone can do that. Your right that the techniques you listed are legal and could be used, but what you dont realize is that a GOOD Kung Fu school will teach you everything a MMA teacher can (excluding jujitsu). How to punch, kick, wrestle, and defend correctly, but you will also learn an incredible amount of techniques which a MMA instructor will not teach as they are not necessary or irrelevent in an environment where gloves are worn, the floor is padded, and rules exist. Sifu Carlos, the black belt who tapped the guy out, simply had to place his focus on the most effective methods of fighting in MMA, meaning that he worked more ground skills, and he has been extremely successful. In his own words, "all fighting is the same", a kung fu practitioner who cant strike and defend well after extensive training is simply not doing right or physically incapable.

and another thing about kung fu "structure". All stances and drills are for the training of coordination, strength, speed, and other attributes, and have nothing to do with the way a fighter looks, a good kung fu fighter will "look" the same in the ring as a practitioner of many other styles.

Lastly, MMA is "better" at teaching fighting skills? The reason it look so much better is that when you give an example of what MMA looks like you point at world class, professionals fighters. Just because most skilled kung fu teachers are not known beyond their schools does not mean they don't exist. I've been doing northern shaolin for about 2 years and my friend shawn has been doing Muay Thai for about the same, but when we spar i generally win, not because he doesn't work hard enough at what he does, but because he lacks the fundamentals of structure, the foundation, something I think he would learn much more effectively if he took a break from pounding on pads and bags and simply sat in a high horse stance, hands chambered, and just concentrated solely on the motion of his strikes.

[AdrianUK]

I have seen alot of these kinds of debate, from the TMA side to the MMA side, I wonder where TMA seems to fail ? Is it only ground work ? Are there any advantages to TMA specific strikes or delivery methods ? I don't know enough about mma rules but what striking common to tma's is not allowed in mma that could be limiting it or is it really that the tma community does not want to train for this format of fighting ?

Thanks for any replies

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen alot of these kinds of debate, from the TMA side to the MMA side, I wonder where TMA seems to fail ? Is it only ground work ? Are there any advantages to TMA specific strikes or delivery methods ? I don't know enough about mma rules but what striking common to tma's is not allowed in mma that could be limiting it or is it really that the tma community does not want to train for this format of fighting ?

Thanks for any replies

TMA don't fail in MMA, their techniques are present in MMA.
Its when a fighter that trains solely in one TMA that he/she fails in MMA.

[AdrianUK]

TMA don't fail in MMA, their techniques are present in MMA.
Its when a fighter that trains solely in one TMA that he/she fails in MMA.

Is that really the case ? Of the limited MMA I have seen (Cage Rage, early UFC, some Pride) the few TMA guys seem to be unable to land effective strikes (discounting the ground work), does that not point to a delivery system failure ? Why does the TMA delivery model fail even at the striking level ? I would guess at the training of the delivery failing under pressure but surely this should be the easiest thing to correct ?