Thoughts on TCMA in MMA

[Rojcewicz]

Im not sure why the TCMA vs MMA is such a big topic, all thats truly different about the styles is the method of training, the product can often be the same.

I didnt start this to make a war, just to acknowledge an observation.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Really, there is no TCMA in MMA. There are the same kicks, throws, locks, postures, and problem-solving, but there are no forms, traditions, meditations, philosophies of TCMA in MMA. You can't put a tradition or a nationality on a straight-punch, a rounhouse/roundkick, a hook, a spinning back heel kick.....striking is just striking. A Chinese CMA practitioner can't do anything I can't do, unless of course we're bargain shopping in Shanghai, b/c I'm going to pay the foriegner price. Other than that, we're equal, and we can do the same things. His TCMA roundhouse is the same as mine, is the same as a karate-man, is the same as Tim Sylvia, is the same as Chuck Norris (that's right, I said it.....the same as Chuck's).

MMA is a take-anything-that-works philosophy. Most of us belong to TCMA schools where we apply the same philosophy, while working within a "closed-circuit" philosophy about fighting, but we put an umbrella of ownership over hte material, set it in a specific context the material itself doesn't require in order to function (yes, the "breathe wrong and step wrong and you'll do irreparable damage to your internal organs and die five years earlier than usual" kind of ideology). They're about the "open circuit" fighting, where its about function.

For those of us who see the empty, embroidered facades of TCMA for what they are--facades--the fighting is hte fighting. That's not to say that the traditions are meaningless--they give a sense of community and identity to a group of practitioners and keep them involved in the martial community.....but they have nothing to do with fighting.

A kick is a kick is a kick, just as a punch is a punch is a punch. Traditions don't work and win fights. Kicks and punches win fights.

[Rojcewicz]

Really, there is no TCMA in MMA. There are the same kicks, throws, locks, postures, and problem-solving, but there are no forms, traditions, meditations, philosophies of TCMA in MMA. You can't put a tradition or a nationality on a straight-punch, a rounhouse/roundkick, a hook, a spinning back heel kick.....striking is just striking. A Chinese CMA practitioner can't do anything I can't do, unless of course we're bargain shopping in Shanghai, b/c I'm going to pay the foriegner price. Other than that, we're equal, and we can do the same things. His TCMA roundhouse is the same as mine, is the same as a karate-man, is the same as Tim Sylvia, is the same as Chuck Norris (that's right, I said it.....the same as Chuck's).

MMA is a take-anything-that-works philosophy. Most of us belong to TCMA schools where we apply the same philosophy, while working within a "closed-circuit" philosophy about fighting, but we put an umbrella of ownership over hte material, set it in a specific context the material itself doesn't require in order to function (yes, the "breathe wrong and step wrong and you'll do irreparable damage to your internal organs and die five years earlier than usual" kind of ideology). They're about the "open circuit" fighting, where its about function.

For those of us who see the empty, embroidered facades of TCMA for what they are--facades--the fighting is hte fighting. That's not to say that the traditions are meaningless--they give a sense of community and identity to a group of practitioners and keep them involved in the martial community.....but they have nothing to do with fighting.

A kick is a kick is a kick, just as a punch is a punch is a punch. Traditions don't work and win fights. Kicks and punches win fights.

yes, but those traditions are also in place to maintain a standard of training from which those punchs and kicks will become effective. I feel that the stances I train in class are directly responsible for the speed and strength of my kicks, just as I feel the forms have allowed by body to learn techniques quickly and more effectively as the mechanics and motions are within those forms and sparring with my friends and kung fu brothers has allowed me to express and more effectively administer those techniques in the context of a fight.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yes, but those traditions are also in place to maintain a standard of training from which those punchs and kicks will become effective. I feel that the stances I train in class are directly responsible for the speed and strength of my kicks, just as I feel the forms have allowed by body to learn techniques quickly and more effectively as the mechanics and motions are within those forms and sparring with my friends and kung fu brothers has allowed me to express and more effectively administer those techniques in the context of a fight.

No, they're put in place to cite ownership and precedence. Traditions have no value in an actual fight, and so they don't have precedence in MMA. It's like writing a paper: TCMA has us all in MLA format, citing every source so it can be corroborated and intellectual property can be established and credited. This is my mantis capping fist from White Ape Steals the Peach taught by the Grand Puba of yadayadayada........ MMA says forget that, takes what it wants, plagiarizes, and quickly snuffs the conscious faculty of the person that is trying to assert its intellectual property.

I like traditions. But they're just facades. They have no place in a fight. And stances are important....it's just that the title is misinterpreted. You transition through a stance--it's usually the marking point where something important happens to build power and speed and strength, or the point where you know you can retreat to or out of if you need to adapt on the fly.

I laugh when I see people standing in outlandish stances they've been taught, and doing so out of context (yes, by traditional teacherS). I think they've sorely missed the point. The point isn't to look like a monkey or a mantis when you're fighting. It's to fight, using a strategy and points of reference (that's where I think tradition is valuable--but that's the in-between, transitory nature of tradition). And yet, my strikes are the same as anyone elses. My mantis doesn't make me look like a mantis. It's fighting based more on specific targeting and angles of attack. The stances don't do **** if I just stand in them, nor the angles of my "mantis fingers" etc....LOL....

[Rojcewicz]

No, they're put in place to cite ownership and precedence. Traditions have no value in an actual fight, and so they don't have precedence in MMA. It's like writing a paper: TCMA has us all in MLA format, citing every source so it can be corroborated and intellectual property can be established and credited. This is my mantis capping fist from White Ape Steals the Peach taught by the Grand Puba of yadayadayada........ MMA says forget that, takes what it wants, plagiarizes, and quickly snuffs the conscious faculty of the person that is trying to assert its intellectual property.

I like traditions. But they're just facades. They have no place in a fight. And stances are important....it's just that the title is misinterpreted. You transition through a stance--it's usually the marking point where something important happens to build power and speed and strength, or the point where you know you can retreat to or out of if you need to adapt on the fly.

I laugh when I see people standing in outlandish stances they've been taught, and doing so out of context (yes, by traditional teacherS). I think they've sorely missed the point. The point isn't to look like a monkey or a mantis when you're fighting. It's to fight, using a strategy and points of reference (that's where I think tradition is valuable--but that's the in-between, transitory nature of tradition). And yet, my strikes are the same as anyone elses. My mantis doesn't make me look like a mantis. It's fighting based more on specific targeting and angles of attack. The stances don't do **** if I just stand in them, nor the angles of my "mantis fingers" etc....LOL....

i agree and I see where your coming from, but could you explain what you mean by stances as a "point of reference"?

[zapruder_bjj]

Outside some of the "newest inventions" in MMA

What are these inventions?

all found in TMA, so its not the TMA techniques that fail, its how they are applied by certain fighters, ie: training method like MK said.

I disagree I say it is the set of techniques that you bring to the table, if you only have striking techniques fighting a grappler will be all but impossible...or if you are boxing and all you have is a jab...or if you are a grappler and never seen a strike...

[zapruder_bjj]

Oh lord........... not his tired old hag of a subject AGAIN............

here, beat this one.......
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/.../deadhorse.jpg

Wouldnt you just be the best person to bring up in this thread, as you got your ass kicked by a **** poor striker and a guy that is barley a blue belt.

And as far as your stupid sig there, we are still waiting for you to come down...and dont worry I will wait for you to get whooped by Anthony again, and even wait for your old ass to heal, so you cant come up with lame "OOOO my ear got hurt" or "my knee!! it was my knees fault!!" or "the sun got into my eyes" ...

[SifuAbel]

Left field, anyone?

Taylor/Mike, arguing with the collective "you" is quite useless. Its already been noted that your gym doesn't support you. They don't sanction you to make threats of appearance to their gym. Shut up now. They don't condone you using their name/location/reputation as your personal barking stool.

Either way, when MEN fight, turds like you should remain quiet.

[unkokusai]

Either way, when MEN fight

They give up in under two minutes to the deadly, deadly ear pull?

[Shaolin Wookie]

i agree and I see where your coming from, but could you explain what you mean by stances as a "point of reference"?

Well, probably not very well. Here's how it goes:

When someone learns a form for the fist time, he puts his body in positions that he's not accustomed to standing in. Ma Bu, jade-ring, etc. Every animal style has certain stances and postures that are unique to it, in some regard. Crane--firing off six kicks on one leg with rapidity isn't easy, nor is transitioning from a series of kicks to a reverse thrust in the opposite direction easy. But Crane is going to build up my balance, my flexibility, my kicks, and my ability to open up and close distances. I'd be an ass if I thought the purpose was to stand on one leg and wait for the opponent, karate-kid style. And I'd be stupid if I thought the solution to confrontation was a series of high kicks....

I think everyone would somewhat agree that the best ready stance is a basic sparring stance, feet at 45 degrees, little more than shoulder-width, knees bent....or maybe some variation of a high jade-ring (my preference). It gives you basic mobility, if needs be to lunge forward or to transition through a cat or mantis stance if dodging back to create distance. I don't know why people want to strike the classic sparring stance in a "cat stance" at the beginning of a sparring session. Why would you want to put all your weight behind you? You've got nowhere to go, and the stance does nothing in and of itself....it gives you a root if you pull back, and creates distance to spring back forward or laterally, but it does nothing in and of itself. Besides, the best defense is a good offense, and you need to be able to press the advantage; you can't do so if you're holding back. So, you move through it when you need to, and if you pull back into that cat stance, you know where to put your balance for the next motion, and you know that you know why that balance is being put there. But to move "into" a stance, rather than "through" is kind of retarded, IMO.

People just seem to want to strike a pose and vogue.

You have to sacrifice aesthetics for function. Which is more important, in the end? The beauty of fighting is in its function, not in the poses and the imitation of animals. If part of CMA is about personal growth and the eradication of pride and self-valuation, we have to get past our self-conscious idealization of postured beauty and the will to conform for the sake of something esoteric.....I suppose.

[MasterKiller]

What are these inventions?



I disagree I say it is the set of techniques that you bring to the table, if you only have striking techniques fighting a grappler will be all but impossible...or if you are boxing and all you have is a jab...or if you are a grappler and never seen a strike...

What if you have awesome grappling and striking techniques, but you only practiced them on a BOB dummy for 30 second rounds once a week?

What would happen if that guy fought a boxer who only jabbed, but trained it on the heavy bag 5 times a week, sparred with partners consistently only using a jab, and had a professional conditioning routine?

[Rojcewicz]

Well, probably not very well. Here's how it goes:

When someone learns a form for the fist time, he puts his body in positions that he's not accustomed to standing in. Ma Bu, jade-ring, etc. Every animal style has certain stances and postures that are unique to it, in some regard. Crane--firing off six kicks on one leg with rapidity isn't easy, nor is transitioning from a series of kicks to a reverse thrust in the opposite direction easy. But Crane is going to build up my balance, my flexibility, my kicks, and my ability to open up and close distances. I'd be an ass if I thought the purpose was to stand on one leg and wait for the opponent, karate-kid style. And I'd be stupid if I thought the solution to confrontation was a series of high kicks....

I think everyone would somewhat agree that the best ready stance is a basic sparring stance, feet at 45 degrees, little more than shoulder-width, knees bent....or maybe some variation of a high jade-ring (my preference). It gives you basic mobility, if needs be to lunge forward or to transition through a cat or mantis stance if dodging back to create distance. I don't know why people want to strike the classic sparring stance in a "cat stance" at the beginning of a sparring session. Why would you want to put all your weight behind you? You've got nowhere to go, and the stance does nothing in and of itself....it gives you a root if you pull back, and creates distance to spring back forward or laterally, but it does nothing in and of itself. Besides, the best defense is a good offense, and you need to be able to press the advantage; you can't do so if you're holding back. So, you move through it when you need to, and if you pull back into that cat stance, you know where to put your balance for the next motion, and you know that you know why that balance is being put there. But to move "into" a stance, rather than "through" is kind of retarded, IMO.

People just seem to want to strike a pose and vogue.

You have to sacrifice aesthetics for function. Which is more important, in the end? The beauty of fighting is in its function, not in the poses and the imitation of animals. If part of CMA is about personal growth and the eradication of pride and self-valuation, we have to get past our self-conscious idealization of postured beauty and the will to conform for the sake of something esoteric.....I suppose.

ah ok, yeah I understand exactly what you mean and agree. I would think the pose striking is so common in kung fu cinema as a form of posturing; that the characters are simply showing off. Many times, when working more practical application in class, we will began with are arms at our sides as the chance of being attacked while your just standing their is probably much greater that someone going into a fighting stance in front of you and allowing you to do the same.

[1bad65]

So SifuExcuses, did you ask Gene if me and Taylor have different IPs?

You know you wont, because just like when you fought Anthony, you will proven to again be full of crap.

Oh yeah, where do YOU train?

[omarthefish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDACoB5POwg

Their boy Zac is 3-0 in MMA now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuQBCxGAgs

I spent Saturday afternoon training at this place. It's one of the coolest kwoons I've ever been in. Really good people. Good training. Lot's of fun and they are consistently winning in local cage matches.

Other links to stuff happening at the school:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...a&search_type=


School homepage: http://undergroundkungfu.com/school.php

[zapruder_bjj]

Left field, anyone?

Taylor/Mike, arguing with the collective "you" is quite useless. Its already been noted that your gym doesn't support you. They don't sanction you to make threats of appearance to their gym. Shut up now. They don't condone you using their name/location/reputation as your personal barking stool.

Either way, when MEN fight, turds like you should remain quiet.

And where is your gym again? Where is it that you supposedly train? Oh wait as I said in the other thread after I invited you to come down and get your ass kicked, you would just puff and posture and make a WHOLE lot of noise. You are just a sh*t talking fur burger.

Now bark for me