Wing Chun VS Boxing (kickboxing/mt)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to create any controversy

Having seen a few clips that are actually quite excellent, such as the Sifu Kwook ones on you tube, I have a question for the WC practioners out there.

How does WC truly deal with a trained boxer/kickboxer?

Reason I ask is this, I have a couple friends that I use to bounce with and they are two of the few that I have seen not only use WC in the street and ring effectively, but it even LOOKED like WC
They do, however, cross train in MT and submission grappling.
They do this to learn how to use their WC VS the aforementioned systems.
One of them once told me that a WC fighters "worse" nightmare is a well trained boxer with fast hands and that was the main reason for training in MT ( for him at least).
I have seen some clips of how WC is SUPPOSE to deal with "typical" boxer.kick boxer attacks but to be truthful the attacks come sloppy and wide and with very little power AND they are premeditated and controlled, not the best way to drill these things, but I do also undertsand that a demo is jsut that, a demo.

Hence my question.

[RGVWingChun]

Wing chun deals with boxers or kickboxers the same way as anything else...you have to make your bridge, either by allowing them to extend out their attacks and bridge with your defensive maneuvers, or you create your bridge and then you have to control and attack.

For instance, if a boxer is through jabs, you can just pak sao his jabs, wait for his cross to come and take control of that and go for your strike. My point is basically have control of their arm(s) before you decide to strike. You don't have to rush in blasting with chain punches cause you will probably get hit. Get your bridge, control and attack. That is why Master Kwok's video look so good and even feels even better in person

Moses

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing chun deals with boxers or kickboxers the same way as anything else...you have to make your bridge, either by allowing them to extend out their attacks and bridge with your defensive maneuvers, or you create your bridge and then you have to control and attack.

For instance, if a boxer is through jabs, you can just pak sao his jabs, wait for his cross to come and take control of that and go for your strike. My point is basically have control of their arm(s) before you decide to strike. You don't have to rush in blasting with chain punches cause you will probably get hit. Get your bridge, control and attack. That is why Master Kwok's video look so good and even feels even better in person

Moses

Hmmm, interesting, I don't wanna focus on Sifu Kwok's videos because the techniques are done against really bad attacks, not taking anythign aways from Sifu Kwok's excellent skill level, just stating the fact the those attacks are, well, lousy.

Pak sao the jabs eh?
I have heard that could be the worse thing to do, considering not only the speed of the jab but how many times hooks come off jabs...
Care to expand on that?

[KPM]

I agree that one of the most dangerous opponents you could face is a good boxer! I can't say that I've sparred with a "quality" boxer, but I have played a bit with training partners. You can't let the boxer stay at his range and "snipe" at you, or he will pick you apart. You have to close quickly, take his space, and keep him off-balance so that he cannot reset. Bridging in on his jab isn't easy, but it is doable. Respond with a Pak or even a Huen as you go in and EXPECT the cross. Jam his rear hand as you go in to either prevent the cross or stop it before it can develop fully. Watch for him to turn the cross into an overhead or a hook and be prepared to turn your jamming Gum/Pak into a Biu. If he seems to be over-committing with his jab, zone to his outside with a strong Pak at his elbow to turn and off-balance him. Then close at an angle that prevents him from using his rear hand (like one of the steps in the dummy form). Most boxers are not used to leg attacks. So one of the things I like to do is move in with a front leg "jab kick" to his lead shin/knee to get him to momentarily drop his hands a bit and then continue the step in with a Pak Da that jams his lead hand and hits. Just some random thoughts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

By boxers I also mean KB/MT fighters, just to make that clear.

[KPM]

By boxers I also mean KB/MT fighters, just to make that clear.

They can be very different, and strategies have to change to reflect that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They can be very different, and strategies have to change to reflect that.

Indeed.
So, and this is not just applicable to WC, how does on formulate a strategy to deal with a trained Boxer?
I have always advocated cross training with trained boxers and developing the skills needed to defeat them in that way, you don't become a boxer ( unless you want to), but you do get exposed to real boxing as opposed to someone throwing what they think is a boxing attack at you.

[monji112000]

Indeed.
So, and this is not just applicable to WC, how does on formulate a strategy to deal with a trained Boxer?
I have always advocated cross training with trained boxers and developing the skills needed to defeat them in that way, you don't become a boxer ( unless you want to), but you do get exposed to real boxing as opposed to someone throwing what they think is a boxing attack at you.

It depends on the strategy the boxer is playing. If he is a straight boxer he is a at dis-advantage becouse of the lack of kicking. Allot of WC can be counter punching, coming in and retreating. On the other hand you can jam in and attack and attack.
Mostly its timing and footwork. In reality its strategically different than boxing or MT.
The biggest difference is the footwork. I'm not talking about standing square.

All that being said its not as common for WC schools to train at this level. One of the issues with WC is you will find vastly different things depending on the school. To be honest it should be called something other than WC... becouse its like calling all grappling Gracie JJ (sambo, free style wrestling, greco, modern BJJ ect..)

for example allot of people advocate doing some type of chi sao when clinching. Its not practical for the most part, becouse nobody is wanting to "play" chi sao. Ofcourse elements are used, but its not so simple. Its better to grab and knee or try to make distance and cover.

The best clip I can produce is old. I don't personally know the guy, but he is a good fighter from a MT background. He trained WC for some time and has his own school. I'm pretty sure he did some MT fights and continues to do them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqkNgTyothc
again its not sparring its only drilling. Nobody likes to be taped I guess.
Please don't flame the clip, I don't want any backlash from the people in the video. (techniques arn't 100% perfect.. but nothing ever is in real life).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I actually like that clip.

[monji112000]

I actually like that clip.

Like I said he is a good fighter. Its not sparring, and nobody has sparring clips online.. I guess everyone is camera shy. He has other clips on his account, they are all good in my opinion, but everyone can have their own criteria.

In the end it all looks the same (as a general concept).

[sihing]

We enter (by attacking first if possible, if not you attack the attack), hit and keep on hitting, all supported by a body structure and engine that can give and accept force while adapting to whatever changes happen during the process. WC teaches to track the Center Axis on someone, if you affect that they lose their balance for a moment, at that moment you are on them. WC teaches to fight in close, where most people feel uncomfortable, here they feel the need to either retreat to make space or grapple to control you, you hit while here in an aggressive manner, with power in the strike (whether it is a punch, elbow, headbutt or knee strike, all the same) from full body unity. The key is to attack, go forward, track center, put massive pressure on the opponent, so they have little chance to think of attack, this increases our chances of success but guarantees nothing. Of course if the opponent has high level skills, harder training practices than you and is used to gettin hit, you will have more problems, that's why you give them little chance to figure you out, attack without mercy, all learned from the training method. WC is about training certain skill sets and attributes, not about applications, IMHO. I fight, not WC.

The same tactic is used against any and all fighters. WC is no good for comps, once people figure out your strategy they can counter it easy, but on the street you won't know what my tactic is, nor my strengths or weakness, or anything for that matter about me, all you will know is that I am hell bent on finishing you off ASAP.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

We enter (by attacking first if possible, if not you attack the attack), hit and keep on hitting, all supported by a body structure and engine that can give and accept force while adapting to whatever changes happen during the process. WC teaches to track the Center Axis on someone, if you affect that they lose their balance for a moment, at that moment you are on them. WC teaches to fight in close, where most people feel uncomfortable, here they feel the need to either retreat to make space or grapple to control you, you hit while here in an aggressive manner, with power in the strike (whether it is a punch, elbow, headbutt or knee strike, all the same) from full body unity. The key is to attack, go forward, track center, put massive pressure on the opponent, so they have little chance to think of attack, this increases our chances of success but guarantees nothing. Of course if the opponent has high level skills, harder training practices than you and is used to gettin hit, you will have more problems, that's why you give them little chance to figure you out, attack without mercy, all learned from the training method. WC is about training certain skill sets and attributes, not about applications, IMHO. I fight, not WC.

The same tactic is used against any and all fighters. WC is no good for comps, once people figure out your strategy they can counter it easy, but on the street you won't know what my tactic is, nor my strengths or weakness, or anything for that matter about me, all you will know is that I am hell bent on finishing you off ASAP.

James

Interesting indeed, thanks, excellent description by the way and a very interesting view in regards to WC and competition.

[kamikaze]

Of course if the opponent has high level skills, harder training practices than you and is used to gettin hit, you will have more problems, that's why you give them little chance to figure you out, attack without mercy, all learned from the training method. WC is about training certain skill sets and attributes, not about applications, IMHO. I fight, not WC.

The same tactic is used against any and all fighters. WC is no good for comps, once people figure out your strategy they can counter it easy, but on the street you won't know what my tactic is, nor my strengths or weakness, or anything for that matter about me, all you will know is that I am hell bent on finishing you off ASAP.
James

My response is only dealing with a boxer.

Most of the WC practitioners that I've worked with lacked in conditioning, and that makes a big difference in a fight or sparring. Also, solely training in close range trapping/sparring exercises will not be enough to engage a boxer that is moving around, working their punches. My sifu in NY encouraged me to cross train in order for your endeavors to be successful, and I suggest that to all other people training in WC.

WC has a lot of techniques that are used by boxers. If you take the time to analyze the 2nd and 3rd form, then you'll notice hooks, uppercuts, and wicked cross punches. So you can box with a boxer for a period of time before going into the trapping range to finish the fight.

You also mentioned that WC is no good in competition, but there are lei tai competitions held in MD for various styles of kung fu. I believe Sifu Redmond's WC squad earned medals last year. Most styles can be used in sport. All it take is a couple of adjustments.

[sihing]

My response is only dealing with a boxer.

Most of the WC practitioners that I've worked with lacked in conditioning, and that makes a big difference in a fight or sparring. Also, solely training in close range trapping/sparring exercises will not be enough to engage a boxer that is moving around, working their punches. My sifu in NY encouraged me to cross train in order for your endeavors to be successful, and I would suggest that to all other people training in WC.

WC has a lot of techniques that are used by boxers. If you take the time to analyze the 2nd and 3rd form, then you'll notice hooks, uppercuts, and wicked cross punches. So you can box with a boxer for a period of time before going into the trapping range to finish the fight.

You also mentioned that WC is no good in competition, but there are lei tai competitions held in MD for various styles of kung fu. I believe Sifu Redmond's WC squad earned medals last year. Most styles can be used in sport. All it take is a couple of adjustments.

Comps (sparring or fighting a boxer in a ring to test yourself, something that I don't discourage doing personally, it is great training and experience to put yourself outside of your comfort zone, even when you are defeated you gain much in experience and wisdom) is not fighting or self defence without weapons in my book, so you are talking apples while I am talking bananas. Conditioning does play a big part when you are "fighting" or comparing skills against other skilled fighters, in a environment with rules and regs, on the street both participants have the element of the unknown working for both them, strange person, strange environment, strange circumstances, no protection or ref/doctor/rules/preconceived idea of the outcome at play there. You can of course, adapt the system to whatever needs you like. I've used the TWC system in tournaments before, and others students in that school have fought successfully in full contact events using it, but for me that is competitions, and something I am not really interested in.

If I knew the person I was fighting with was a boxer, I wouldn't box with him, because that is his specialty. Don't kick with a kicker, box with a boxer or wrestle with a wrestler, do something different than what they are doing for better odds at defeating them. On the street there is no luxury of pre-knowledge of your opponents abilities or style preferences, so the key is to be aggressive, attack them first and let your training express itself thru you in a natural way. If your training sucks, or your system of WC is of low quality then I guess you will have more problems, as not all WC is the same or equal. Now for me, besides a couple of weeks of judo and karate back when I was a pre teen, and some wrestling in public school, all of my MA training has been within the WC system. Saying that, does that mean I am limited to a Man/Wu sau bai jong structure, and all the clichés that surround WC when engaging an opponent? Well if your goal is to perform WC while you fight, then yes. If your goal is to get out of a real situation alive and unharmed, you USE your training to help you do just that, prevail and survive. I use the WC, it doesn't use me, and since it is a conceptually based training method, only my imagination limits me. With today's technology it is easy for anyone to gain exposure of other MA methods, and maybe use that exposure to adapt your training to make it more effective. Even where I live, there is a good MMA school and when the day comes that I want to experience that I will pursue just that, but for now I still have lots to learn in the system I am training in, I find it enjoyable to train and to teach others what I know of it. The learning never stops, WC for me is fun that is the major factor why I continue to train it.

James

P.S.
"Most of the WC practitioners that I've worked with lacked in conditioning, and that makes a big difference in a fight or sparring." Regarding your statement:
For me I don't look at what or how others use the system, as no one can completely represent a training method like WC, as the application of it is totally up to the individual using it. I've found the key thing for me is to understand what WC is trying to teach totally. It's an aggressive, sneaky system. Someone once described it as an "Assassin's Art", when dealing with an assassin you won't know what is going on, and when you do it is too late, your already dead. Think of it this way, there are tiny six shooter snub nose hand guns out there, guns that you can easily hide in a holster or pocket. These types of guns are not the most powerful, useful, totally complete gun in the world, but it gets the job done, as if you approach someone concealing this weapon and they use it on you, your dead before you knew they even had it, even if the person you are shooting is experienced with all sorts of guns. WC is like this, it is most useful when the element of surprise and unknown is on your side.

[RGVWingChun]

Pak sao the jabs eh?
I have heard that could be the worse thing to do, considering not only the speed of the jab but how many times hooks come off jabs...
Care to expand on that?

Sure...what I meant was pak sao the individual jabs but with no follow up attack. Just plain pak sao, possibly with a slight retreat to draw him into using the cross so you can take advantage of that since it would be a more committed attack on his part.