What Wing Chun has taught me

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for the subtitles!

I wasn't aware I was even implying it... I thought it was blatantly obvious!

[t_niehoff]

Thanks, Mr. Punch.

I offer my views for consideration by those with that share my objective (developing real, usable fighting skill with WCK) and perspective (one based on reality, and founded on evidence and reason). And I listen to the views of those that share these values even if we disagree.

However, I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in trying to have rational (based on evidence and reason) discussions with people like Hardwork8 who have irrational beliefs, have no significant experience with WCK (fighting), have no significant experience training with good fighters, etc. They signal their irrational perspective and ignorance by the terms and phrases they use, and by the things they say. I'm not saying these people are idiots or stupid; some of them are quite bright. But they are lost. They are fantasy-based martial artists, theoretical nonfighters, and will continue to believe the world is flat no matter what.

As I'm not interested in fantasy, they can offer me nothing useful toward my objective (developing real and better fighting skill with WCK), there is no point in having any discussion with them.

[Mr Punch]

Most don't, but that it the individuals/Sifu's/Instructors fault, not that of the art or training method. So when you say things like that you have to replace the word "Wing Chun", with whomever's name that is doing this. People get stuck all the time in the progression of the training system, I've seen this tons over the last 20yrs. That's okay, as long as you realize what you are doing and getting out of it. I personally love the training it is fun and I get alot of joy out of it, and I believe I realize that there is a difference btwn training something specific and full out fighting.

If you feel your school is not in the 'Typical' bracket please feel free to break down your training in a similar manner to show how similar it is to the others mentioned above.

So James, just for ****s and giggles, would you like to tell us how close your training gets to my assessment of what a streetfight entails? Does it come closer than a UFC fight... or to be more 'sporting' ( ) does it come closer than MMA training for competition?

[t_niehoff]

I realize that there is a difference btwn training something specific and full out fighting.

James, of course there is a difference.

Let's look at it this way. What are we trying to do with our training (that "something specific" you mention)? We are trying to develop the ability to fight 'full out' successfully using our WCK method and skills. What are boxers, MT fighters, BJJ fighters, sambo fighters, etc. trying to do? Develop the ability to fight "full out" using their respective method and skills. What have they -- the functional martial arts -- taught us? That the only way to develop that ability beyond a low level is by and with training geared toward "full out fighting." That means, learning things as you will really need to do them in fighting (which can only be determined by fighting, as otherwise it is just a theory)and practicing those things as you really intend to do them under the same conditions you intend to do them (the specificity principle of motor skill development). Only in that way will you be able to perform well -- develop fighting skill. To "practice" is to do.

Skill at doing something comes from doing the very thing you are trying to develop (repetition). Fighting skill, which is the ability to perform in fighting (your method and skills), comes from fighting.

There are, of course, different fighting situtations. Street, ring, cage, gym, tournament, etc., and including our opponent. The FUNDAMENTAL skills you need for all those situations is the same. They will work equally well in any of these siuations. Those skills are developed by and through fighitng. The tactics (our choice of how to use those skills) will vary and depend on the fighting situation.

[HardWork8]

Good posts T and Van.

To the OP, can I just ask you to compare the following lists:

1) You are trying to knock someone out or break something off someone who is trying to do the same to you.
2) You punch and kick and try to takedown full strength and speed someone who is doing the same to you.
3) You work hard to get superior positions to be able to achieve (1) on someone who is trying to do the same to you.

1) You are trying to knock someone out, break something off someone or maim or kill someone who is trying to do the same to you.
2) You punch and kick and try to takedown full strength and speed someone who is doing the same to you.
3) You work hard to get superior positions to be able to achieve (1) on someone who is trying to do the same to you.

1) You are trying to hit someone (who is sometimes trying to do the same to you) at a polite level of strength.
2) You are pulling punches and kicks against someone who is doing the same to you (sometimes) and work takedowns against someone who lets you.
3) You work hard to get superior positions to be able to achieve (1) on someone who is sometimes trying to do the same to you.

OK, so now put a title to these lists out of:

A Typical Wing Chun Practice Session
A UFC Fight
A Streetfight

and then, to finish the exercise, tell me which one is the odd one out.

If you feel your school is not in the 'Typical' bracket please feel free to break down your training in a similar manner to show how similar it is to the others mentioned above.

Thanks!

The street fight of course is the odd one out, because it can hit you out of the blue; you have no idea who you are facing;How many there are;if they are armed or if they are going to sucker punch you before you even know that you are in a street fight.

Well, now that we got that straight, lets then go to the "typical Wing Chun Practice Session". Now if you compare a "typical" any TMA session to the UFC and street fighting then you are making an unfair comparison. Because:

1. A typical TMA class is more likely than not a "Mcdojo/Kwoon".

2. UFCs are events for professional athletes who train very hard to participate in such sport's events

3. Streets fights as we have established, are separate animals from the the first 2.

There are Wing Chun schools that practice contact sparring and in the case of the Mainland Chinese lineage that I pracitice, groundfighting as well(I have not reached this level yet).

What you don't see when you observe WC sparring in this lineage are people "bouncing" around as in sport TKD or boxing/kickboxing. They will be using WC stances/rooting and techniques.

Viewed is the right word. You may notice that none of the BJJ types are actually joining in with Mr Kwok's part of the seminar.

I wouldn't know, because I was not there. The point (that you obviously missed) here is and always was, how Carlson Gracie sees Wing Chun's EFFECTIVENESS and his RESPECT for Master Samuel Kwok.

Considering the number of times you have inferred that people have been saying they're hard enough to have a crack at others' sifus and the number of times you've chided people for having no respect for 'masters' and 'grandmasters' perhaps you'd like to shut up or go and challenge Robert Chu, who you think you can obviously beat? Just wondering...

You have missed the point, yet again. Can you please show me where I have boasted that I could beat Robert Chu or anyone for that matter?
And why bring him into the discussion?

[sihing]

So James, just for ****s and giggles, would you like to tell us how close your training gets to my assessment of what a streetfight entails? Does it come closer than a UFC fight... or to be more 'sporting' ( ) does it come closer than MMA training for competition?

Neither, I'm still learning the system and absorbing what it has to teach me. I have learned drills that I am now incorporating into the class that resemble more realistic situations, but this all falls under the relem of "Training". WC for me is very specific training, there's all kinds of stuff that I still have to learn from the training, also things that I already know that have to improve. The application side of it is all up to the individual. The way I am thinking about WC now, and the way I teach it, is very strict like. The reason for this is because I want to absorb what the training system is teaching me, and possess the skill sets to a high level. I also try to do the same with the people that I am teaching it too. Before when I was training TWC, we did allot of application stuff, everything from standard self defence techniques vs. grabs, chokes, club/knife defences, to punching/kicking defences, up to what my Instructor at that time called Anti Grappling stuff as well. Looking back on this I find that the students had knowledge of how to defend themselves, but did not have the attributes or body mechanics within their bodies to pull any of it off. So for now, my main concern is picking up on the body structure and mechanics that WSL VT teaches. Slowly, more realistic application stuff will be presented and worked on. No use doing this stuff to early, when the body can't use what you are training in, IMO.

Honestly, I really don't think about getting attacked or worry about situations like that. The way I understand the way of things, if you are looking for a fight, you will find one, if your not you won't. I worked security for years in all kinds of public places, dealt with drunks and people on drugs, only a few times was any type of physicality needed to deal with things. I will say, if I lived in a place where the chances of physical violence was more prevelant, then yes I probably would add more realistic "what if" scenerios to our training. Here were I live, knife attacks are becoming more common place. How do you deal with someone with a knife? You run first, if not gain some sort of equalizer, but trying to teach people technique to defeat someone with a knife is silly and will just engrain a false sense of confidence in that situation.

James

[HardWork8]

However, I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in trying to have rational (based on evidence and reason) discussions with people like Hardwork8 who have irrational beliefs,

You mean, "irrational beliefs" such as Wing Chun can actually be used for fighting?

These beliefs are based on my own experience of training Traditional Wing Chun, which is an art that you yourself have never trained authentically and are not likely to train, not with your attitude anyway.

have no significant experience with WCK (fighting), have no significant experience training with good fighters, etc.

What part of "there is contact fighting training in my Wing Chun school as well as many other authentic Wing Chun and TMA schools" don't you understand?

I'm not saying these people are idiots or stupid;

Well, thank god for that!

some of them are quite bright.

Well thank you Terence,old boy.

But they are lost.

Ouch!

They are fantasy-based martial artists, theoretical nonfighters, and will continue to believe the world is flat no matter what.

AGAIN! What part of "There is contact fighting training in my Wing Chun School as well as in other authentic Wing Chun and TMA schools", don't you understand???

As I'm not interested in fantasy, they can offer me nothing useful toward my objective (developing real and better fighting skill with WCK), there is no point in having any discussion with them.

Except that you are not really practicing Wing Chun, it is, and on the plus side might I add, a MMA that works for you, but it is an error to call this Wing Chun.

[unkokusai]

Classic stuff:


1) There is 'fighting' that no one has ever seen, be it 'contact' in the kwoon (which can mean a lot of things) to 'challenges' that are always and forever (and quite deliberately) cloaked in mystery.

2) There are 'masters' who could destroy everyone and anyone but somehow never so much as get into an argument about returning soup at a restaurant.

3) There are techniques and approaches that only the claimant (and always-absent 'brothers' in training) seems to know about.

4) Anyone who disagrees with anything said by these keepers of the vague is necessarily 'inauthentic.'

5) Training or competition that is regularly tested and easily verified is seen as a threat and must be disregarded or denounced in some manner.

[SAAMAG]

It's just one of those things man.

You always know when martial artists really fight, because their fighting will conform to the task at hand instead of to a single doctrine. They realize what works and what doesn't, and they yearn to learn more about this so-called "fighting"...so from that point on the martial artist no longer conforms to styles, but rather absorbs tools that make them better in fighting, regardless of the source. It's not MMA, it's just martial arts.

The ephiphany that develops from fighting (to me) is that no style, or master, or person is the end-all. These elements are rather guides to get you started, but the completion of one's journey is up to the individual. One learns to trust not in stories of old, but of experiences of present day...and the performance will be the result of only the individual.

[anerlich]

If that means I bite you, gouge your eyes out, kick your spine... whatever I have to do. That is obviously not legal in UFC.

I haven't seen many WC teachers that teach biting or eye gouging. I doubt many have researched how to do it effectively.

Maybe french kissing is chi sao for the bite? (No I won't try it with you).

Kicking the spine? YMMV, but a IMO well-placed blow to the jaw or head is usually the fastest way to stop an attacker.

Bite someone, claw an eye out or turn someone into a paraplegic and you'll probably go to jail. Even if he started it, and certainly if it was over a barstool, a girl, or a parking space.

MAs are great stuff, interesting, fulfilling, lots of fun. But martial skill is one of the least important to master to improve your odds of survivng violent crime.

Another RBSD vs MMA thread ... looks like we can never have enough of those. **yawn**

[Mr Punch]

Great answer HW8!

Despite you (probably deliberately!) missing the point of which one I am pointing to as the odd one out, I agree with a lot of what you said.

The problem is, of course, that it doesn't relate back to the OP's claim that WC training provides more of a 'reality' focus than UFC-style training.

Of course, I've done 'Animal Day' style training, which could in some way prepare you for the kind of explosive, immediate, surprising violence you might encounter... but then unfortunately I've been in enough altercations to know that it's always a surprise, and that while some training can help, only street smarts itself will help to prepare you for the awareness part, and that no amount of training is going to change my make-up fom basically a peaceful person (and I don't want to! - I have lived too long in areas where constantly being on edge is the only way to prevent getting caught out - it was a truly **** experience)

So, that brings us back to the physical training aspect. Through geographical necessity I've trained in and visited many wing chun schools and in the usual mode of practice there is little to convince me that WC training is more realistic than MMA training (which I have also trained in - incidentally I might add, initially with the aim of sharpening up and testing out my chun skills). In fact, usually the opposite.

Also incidentally (as I don't recognise your post as directly addressing the OP's point), there are only two points I disagree with, but I'm afraid these are points you brought up because of a particular lack of knowledge about MMA training.

One is your implication that only pro-fighters go through a realistic, thorough training regime (which still doesn't really sit with the OP's assertion that UFC fighters are not as well equipped to deal with reality as chunners, but anyway...). This is not true. We did semi-full-contact training at my wing chun school, and sometimes padded-up full contact (although my sifu was basically against it), but nothing in my then 7-8 years of training wing chun was anywhere near the intensity of the MMA school I went to. And I didn't go to any stand-around and talk chun sessions either - we were always hands-on... The MMA gave me a lot more experience in a very very short time of being punched and kicked full-power and what the hell I needed to do to avoid this (whether a supposedly unique chun strategy like moving straight in and keeping the pressure up, or boxing-style ducking and weaving, or how to use the evasions and footwork in biu jee for avoidance and setting up... The point is: I was tested a lot more and a lot more realistically than at any chun school)!

The second one is about chunners bouncing around, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand, apart from being probably quite inaccurate.

Also irrelevant so I'm going to make this my last word on this...

The point (that you obviously missed) here is and always was, how Carlson Gracie sees Wing Chun's EFFECTIVENESS and his RESPECT for Master Samuel Kwok.

I'll venture that Mr Gracie saw good business. I can't speak for either of them, but while I’ve no reason to doubt that Mr Gracie may have felt respect for Sam as a friend, I also have little reason to believe that he thought of the martial partnership as anything other than business.

You have missed the point, yet again. Can you please show me where I have boasted that I could beat Robert Chu or anyone for that matter?
And why bring him into the discussion?

Again, beside the point, but it’s based on when you have accused others with differing opinions of saying that they could take on Grandmaster XYZ of old.

Anyway, was going to congratulate everyone on keeping this thread civil… but that’s when I started writing this post this morning before work and the obligatory obnoxious posts reared up!

[Mr Punch]

James, in summary (and no offence here), you have no experience of living in violent situations or of violent encounters and little to no experience of MMA or full contact... am I right? Well, I know this is a discussion board and I've no right or reason to want to chase you off it, but how exactly are you able to qualify an opinion on the subject of this thread?!

And HW8, I'd be interested (honestly not trying to call you on this) to hear more detail about the way you practice: the full-contact training that equips you for the mean streets...

Anerlich, obviously not enough, cos I've still never worked out wtf RBSD stands for!

EDIT! Aaaaahhhh, satori! Reality Based Self Defence, right?

[Mr Punch]

Kicking the spine?

Yeah, kick the spine, you end up in the nick getting called Nancy.

[anerlich]

RBSD - Reality Based Self Defence.

Of course, "Reality" is as much a matter of perception as ... reality.

[anerlich]

I'll venture that Mr Gracie saw good business. I can't speak for either of them, but while I’ve no reason to doubt that Mr Gracie may have felt respect for Sam as a friend, I also have little reason to believe that he thought of the martial partnership as anything other than business.

Yeah, most of us have seen that clip. I think both saw a business opportunity and hopefully respected each other (an example for us all to ponder). I didn't see Carlson doing any chi sao or Sam drilling sweeps in a gi.