Chi Gerk

[Vajramusti]

I'll be expecting the hate mails after this post.
Yip Man didn't chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I've heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I'll see if Ican find it.

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Phil- you are entitled to your opinion...mine is different. Depends on who you ask.
joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

No chi-gerk...from V Kan And WSL ...leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er... ah, one leg
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg....a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another ...to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do . theres more but ...

[Phil Redmond]

No chi-gerk...from V Kan And WSL ...leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er... ah, one leg
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg....a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another ...to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do . theres more but ...

I agree Kevin. I've had three of Yip Man's students and a few others tell me that there was no standing on one leg circling exercise taught by YM and that it was made up by some students. But if it works for some it's all good.

[chusauli]

There is no Chi Gerk with Hawkins Cheung either. I also know that William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung did not have it. Koo Sang mentioned it when I trained with him in 1987. When I visited Lo Man Kam and Tsui Sheung Tien in 1987, they did not have the exercise.

I think it is a method developed in the 1960's with Ng Chan, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Koo Sang, etc.

IMO, it should not be an exercise to stay up on one leg, but rather, a dynamic method of trapping the knees, breaking balance, guiding kicks, shaving legs, kicking the support leg, push horse, deflection, striking with the knees, etc.

The way I teach it is we start in a parallel or cross leg and when we feel an opponent's kick or leg raise, we move with it. It becomes a dynamic exercise that can be added to Chi Sao or San Sao. Without this exercise, people get "loose" about low leg defense...

Chi Gerk/Sticking Legs Categories include:

Stepping – Moving the stance
Trapping – Trapping the opponent’s leg
Striking – Use of the foot, knee, shin, thigh
Intercepting – cutting off the opponent’s attack
Running – going away from the force
Sweeping – Destroying the opponent’s balance
Sticking – Moving with the opponent
Asking – Inquiring the next move
Protecting – Guarding the body and placement of the knee

The above is how I categorize skills, I do not teach these as techniques. These are my categorization and progressions, and not anyone else's.

Augustine Fong did run through his system with me when he visited NYC in the 80's. I combined what I learned from him and from my other instructors and have this method now. Probably Augustine was the first to really show his system in depth. I admire his innovation and teachings to the art.

Hawkins Cheung, due to his small stature, probably has the best legs in WCK (that I have seen). He used his methods of leg checks, disruptions, counters, offbalancing on me first hand. And I sparred him and received many a leg kick with his hard dress boots on... fortunately, since I am a Chinese medicine practitioner, I have good Dit Da and acupuncture to help me forget about the pain...

WCK needs to develop this skill - it is still a viable skill for the lower gates.

[k gledhill]

V Kan just did a simple right angle knee/shin lift to a low kick ..it could combine going in and following or dropping the leg back to recover if the guy came in, keeping balance...better to take it on the shin than the 'monkey steals the peaches"
The action was swift up down not stay in air dumdeedum ...

Our training did include 3 minute on one leg holding the lead leg up in this manner. sounds easy
along with same holding balance chambered in sidekick positions, or after multiple front /side kicks , simply for balance training. But any of these combos could easily follow the path of leg sticking if allowed to. one can use anything to acomplish the goal at hand so it was never said you cannot, but rather 'no limit as limit'....V kan also showed close quarter counters to leg attacks involving simple foot to knee stamps to finish.

[Vajramusti]

Without being a wiseguy- to the best of my knowledge- Ip Man rarely taught chi gerk but he did teach chi gerk and Ho Kam Ming directly learned chi gerk from Ip Man. I cant comment on anyone else in that generation.

Both as an old style sifu and one who had to depend on wing chun for personal survival and then later economic survival in HK- Ip Man appears to have taught different things to different folks and understandably of course for a fee. Often one private student didnt know what another was learning.That is why hearsay can be quite confusing.

Ip man himself in his younger days used his legs a lot more than he did in later years..

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Whatever floats your boat

[Vajramusti]

Whatever floats your boat

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why of course! But I was not talking about my boat.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

Leung Sheung and my Sifu learned chi gerk from Yip Man as well… It’s just not understood and taught by most instructors today as we speak… It seems to me that only the first group (ten or-so students) learned chi gerk from Yip Man back in the 1950s (maybe not all of the first 10)… Yip Man himself was rarely seen teaching a group class, yet along with teaching chi gerk to the masses…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Funny that the idea of 'sticking' or 'hand chasing' actually ISN'T the idea in chi-sao development. So it stands to reason of logic it wouldn't carry over to the feet.

We dont try to stick to each others arms with wrist force , this wrist force is what gives the user the bad habit of trying to put his energy out at the distal point of the elbow theory altogether, WRONG thinking, but a common one.

Like I said there are things one can do but not sticking to a leg ....the longer you stand on one leg with a willing partner the more unstable you will be with an unwilling fighter....attack the person don't stop to do sticky anything

[SAAMAG]

While the during the exercise itself one's goal is to stick, I don't feel that is the ultimate goal of the exerciise. That is, the goal in the fight isn't to stay sticking on one leg.

With either chi sao or chi gerk, the point of the exercise (to me) is to learn sensitivity and ingrain a natural reaction for those seconds that the arms or leg may be in contact during a fight, since what WC in general teaches is to close the distance, pinning the arms if possible (which inevitably will be an obstacle), and [counter]attacking.

Naturally during this process with being in such close proximity, the front legs may be touching, and this is where the drill comes into play. It helps build that sensitivity to feel if the leg is in a superior posiiton, and helps to feel any kinds of shifts in position of the legs of the opponent. Typically, I'll practice the drill in a non-formatted way, meaning I'll be touching with the leg (foot on ground) and if I feel my opponent try to gain better position to advance, kick, throw, retreat, and etcetera, I'll react to it accordingly (hopefully anyway).

So, I don't think the drill advocates standing on one leg, as that's just not smart at that range (or any range for that matter). If the opponent were to kick, the leg check would inevitiably follow, but afterwards the leg should immediatly return to it's root (in application). Like moving stances, the chi gerk drill is simply capturing a *moment* in time to facilitate the ultimate goal of maintaining a superior standing position.

The key to this exercise, is instead of doing it like the traditional drill--do it with as much resemblance to fighting as possible. Practicing entry, get to a bridge for the sake of the exercise, have one of the participants try to move to the inside, outside, retreat, kick, all that sort of thing. The goal of the other participant is to react and gain better position. All this can be done in conjunction sao fot as well--but until that skill level comes, I typically have the hands just maintaining the better fighting line.

[Ali. R]

What I’m saying here is very much fact to most, and this is what I’ve been teaching for over twenty-five years dealing with this subject… I’m sure 80% of the Hong Kong Wing Chun population would agree with this… Remember its just information and not written in stone…

I was taught that the feet stops the feet, and the hands stops the hands, in other words you don’t bend down with the arms too stop the feet or kicks, but only use the legs too do so…

That particular drill (chi gerk) prepares one; by slicing, jamming and wedging as well as redirecting low gate energies without the clash or banging of legs (as in MT) when in application or in execution…

There is a condition drill that deals with the framework of chi gerk, which taps each side of the lower leg or shin… By training too stand on one leg when working that drill (chi gerk as well as condition) really enhance ones balance…

When ones balance is good dealing with one leg, then one can really hone in on the kicking drills soon after the leg condition drills are mastered, this way they can really learn too control their kicking leg and begin too use multiple kicks with balance and power…

The more one start too stand or trains too stand on one leg the stronger his balance will becomes… In most systems that I know of that deals with kicks, teaches their student how too keep their balance first… When kicking: one foot is always on the floor and the other is lifted in the air…

If one wants too master the kick or block, which is used with the leg, then one should master the understanding of the foot or leg that is planted to the floor, this is why we stand on one leg as long as possible when working these drills for balance, power and agility dealing with the single leg approach…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Great post and good points on the kicking skills Ali. While it's true the student can learn balance with the kicking in this fashion, I don't use chi gerk for this. I advocate to practice kicking separately at full force on a bag, or do some other kicking drills to gain this skill.

I also don't teach multiple kicking any longer (outside of just for being able to do something "cool" or building a natural attribute). Never will I advocate it in a real situation. The reason I don't teach the chain kicking (without placing the foot down in between) any longer is because in general--those types of kicks are not powerful enough to do damage each time, subsequently that sort of chain kicking places the kicker in danger of a takedown for those in the know. The closest thing I will teach is the leg check/sweep to the front leg to side kick to the back leg...which I've used and seen as a functional technique on several occasions.

Take a look at the TKD chain kicks and the MT round kick, for example. Which would you be more concerned with? Easy way to illustrate this is to try doing chain round kicks on a bag, and noticing how much effect they have, following up with round kicks on the bag putting your foot down in between each kick. HUUUGE difference in effectiveness and not much difference in time.

[Ali. R]

I really understand what you’re saying about the multiple kicks, but power will come if your balance is good…

I can break two baseball bats with my shins while going in two different direction while standing on one leg, it may take some longer too develop it though, it can be done… The ankle, knee and waste joints can only move so-many ways before collapsing to pressure…

If the stance is good there’s a lot of things that one can do… while in YJKYM, I will have my students push me as hard as they want, and they cannot push me from my stance, my back stays straight and my feet do not move…

If one can master his balance as well as power by standing on one leg, then through focus and agility one will easily find those collapsible points within the joints of the leg of his opponent, by keeping their opponent pre-occupied with sight, (the hands) and while the leg really starts too work on your opponents balance (collapsible points)…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Tom Kagan]

Funny that the idea of 'sticking' or 'hand chasing' actually ISN'T the idea in chi-sao development. So it stands to reason of logic it wouldn't carry over to the feet.

Actually, 'sticking' is the idea. 'Sticking' is quite different than 'sticky'. Look it up.

"I don't know much English. This word, I happen to know." -- Moy Yat.