Chi Gerk

[Liddel]

Some questions raised for me Ali when watching the clip....polite discussion bro im not nip picking

This is an interesting clip that I forgot I’ve posted, dealing with some kicking drills and if your balance is good then you well grain a lot of power within your kicks or leg blocks while training on one leg, as long as one can take it…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFORS8zhO8
Ali Rahim.

Do you ever consider using the same extended hand (in contact) and a kick as a no no (especially against another VT guy) ?

One lop IMO and your off balance and crossed up with the kick loosing all force. But not so if you use different sides...

Also when Gray is using the kicks in the second part (with the young guy not you) he doesnt disrupt the opponents horse enough, meaning if his opponent had good skill he could take that extended hand and use gum Sao on the kick....and even attack with the shoulder with good timing. (some may have seen a basic use in the old WSL vid out there)

I think when we have or even create kicking drills they should complement the hand game....

I know we have some differnces in our lineages so i wondered what your thoughts were ?

DREW

[Ali. R]

I use all kinds of hand and arm shapes when kicking and blocking… Its countless techniques that one can use or do when using the legs and arms simultaneously…
Drills like these are just the beginning...

You know I have all kinds of guys that come to my school that does drills with me, and when they decide too try to hit me outside of that drill; I beat the hell out of them for over 15 min… Then after, in which they are really polite and gentle, then ready and willing too receive anything that I have to give up…

Most love too turn drills into a fight way before they’re understood because of their lack of understanding they have no choice but too deviate and when one can out understand the other within the drill, they are quick too say lets take it to another level of force, because some are to dumb to keep from deviating from their lack of understanding (by choice)…

It’s just a drill, and when they deviate from the drill they will not develop true balance and power… Concerning Chris and the other students doing the drill, well they are brand new to it, as you can see I am not…

And everything that I mention will ring true if one truly has perseverance, drive, and the will too ponder the understanding of that particular drill…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

I dont know if you get my point.

Its not the hand shapes with kicks i have an issue with, i use Tan Bong Guarn etc also..... its the potential for a straight kick getting stuffed when you use a hand and kick on the same side

We do drills with the hands where we try to avoid situations where we help/assist our opponent in crossing our arms up right ? most VT lineages do...we want to avoid it ourselves and do it to our opponents though....

Which is why i asked about your clip. I see alot of leg training where habbit VT responses should be able to stuff leg kicks given with the same side as a hand in contact.

I realise there are other factors at work...
- the other guys in the clip are new
- Its just a drill for kicking only

But i stand by my call -

I think when we have or even create kicking drills they should complement the hand game....

If you were to Tan my punch and try to kick me using your leg on the same side (like in the clip) my immediate habbit reaction is to lop or pull down your Tan....disrupting your balance, making your kick loose all force and crossing your body up giving me timing for my own attack....in most cases at my training the younger guys end up having thier hands touch thier leg as i Lop almost falling over foward.

So your not concerned about this at all, or just not for isolated drills like we see here ?

Perhaps im alone in this POV, im just curious what others think, were all entitled to our opinions

DREW

[Ali. R]

And that’s a big, if you can stop or pull me before my kick reaches you deal…

And I thought you were not nick picking. If I kick with the same leg that I punch with then I’m sure you would or could pull me off balance, but if I kick with the opposite leg, then you could not pull me off balance…

Anyone can just give this a try… When one punches with the opposite hand and leg the body does not work as a turn stop, therefore you can fairly maintain your balance, and that is the first rule of kicking in wing chun for just about every other lineage…

It’s very obvious that you are not in the know about kicking and striking simultaneously… I will make a clip too show you what’s going on, and it’s no way that I will get pull off balance NO MATTER HOW HARD ONE PULLS… The proof is there, and I’m sure there will be a switch some how when I show you… This is all that Ill say about this matter… And I thought you were not nick picking… LOL… LOL… Remember too give it a try, but I’m sure it wont work for you some how… Better yet, make a clip before mine, give me video clip proof of your claim...

And to all, please try what I’ve said here first, before making your opinion…

When pulling the blocking hand when one kicks (same side), you will only pull the kick into you… When pulling the punching hand when one kicks (same side), you will pull him off balance… This is common knowledge concerning wing chun kicking…

Make arm contact just as I did on the clip, one will not lose his or her balance by pulling the blocking hand, but only by pulling the punching hand when kicking (same side)… LOL

Thank you,


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

I teach to simply maintain structure by not leaning forwards as the kicks are thrown, doesn't matter about the arm then . This involves hip positions etc...

If you try to pull the arm of a person keeping shoulders back into their structure and hips aligned ,as they kick, you can pull them, but your still kicked or countered or whatever comes next because they don't fall forwards losing the attacking ability , If they simply drop the lead kick while keeping structure they can keep kicking you good for them bad for you .


I use the lop pull to unbalance simply to correct the structure/alignment mistake. If they do lean forward I lop'em too. But the idea of grabbing hands to block kicks is like chasing arms again. GET IN and dont offer arms to a person who will instinctively grab to control or maintain balance, remove the platform for force or stability , don't give it to them ; )

If people grab the lead arm [common in real fights ime] use the bil gee elbow bowing down to recover the grabbed wrist / arms ability to keep striking, simply raise the elbow as bil gee and drop it over the guys forearm while going at him from the flank, if he doesnt let go he's /she is in a painful wrist lock to submission, keep applying until his elbow hits the ground , Or recover the 2 free striking hands and kicks...attack as defense.

n.b. some in Chi- Na use a covering hand to apply to the grabbing hand on your wrist as part the elbow recovery from bil gee , this is ok for 'whatever thinking' but remember the primary idea is to be hitting with one lead[ man sao] one rear[ vu-sao] dont engage in their idea of using 2 hands to fight one ..its bil gee thinking , reserved for this situation. So asap you recover the grabbed wrist because thy had to let go strike again trap to strike ...

The reverse is also possible if someone attempts to wrist lock you if your in a bong sao, and they grab the hand to apply pressure to the wrist, simply do a lop sao turning the way your elbow will drop down to tanstriking in etc.. I think everyone knows that one ?

[Liddel]

And that’s a big, if you can stop or pull me before my kick reaches you deal…

And thats why i posted with the title "its a matter of timing...but"

And I thought you were not nick picking.

Im not, im asking a question im interested in. Dont like it ? dont answer !
I understand your defencive attitude given this forums track record LOL

I was fairly humble in my approach dude...

Perhaps im alone in this POV, im just curious what others think, were all entitled to our opinions

When one punches with the opposite hand and leg the body does not work as a turn stop, therefore you can fairly maintain your balance, and that is the first rule of kicking in wing chun for just about every other lineage…

Back the train up.... I never mentioned punching and kicking at the same time ive only ever mentioned blocking actions at this point in the conversation.

It’s very obvious that you are not in the know about kicking and striking simultaneously…

Yawn. Its clear i do have my own way and am interested in finding out about others POV. Whats obvious is ive barked up the wrong tree LOL

I will make a clip too show you what’s going on, and it’s no way that I will get pull off balance NO MATTER HOW HARD ONE PULLS…

A sudden jolt of force from my VT and you will be affected....how much is up for debate and can only be resolved by sparring together....
Perhaps youll waste me...or perhaps youll understand what im on about

When pulling the blocking hand when one kicks (same side), you will only pull the kick into you…

Not so for the front kick in the clip im addressing.

if im skilled, ill pull you off balance and have my fist in your face while getting 'touched' by your kick...but i guess i have no clue about VT...

Pulling is not the best word for it...it denotes towards myself, but in fact with my VT when i lop or divert forces with my blocking tools its using gravity and the water theory of VT...its downwards more than fowards and away from my body(center) again its a jolt not an overcommmited uneconomic tug, cause im not a begginer...i only need inches - basic VT bro

IMO You think from a POV thats not fair and reasonable, you think the great Ali vs some student of yours or someone of lesser skill...

Im thinking of someone of equal or more skill than me when training and that changes the game somewhat IME.

But the idea of grabbing hands to block kicks is like chasing arms again.

I agree. But the instance im addressing has your arms already in contact, as you've blocked a coming punch.... and now you want to kick in reaction.

Im only talking about the front kick here....

In the clip we see Ali using Tan to block an attack, sweet.... then he's applying a front kick to the waist area.

My point is hes more protected if he kicks with the opposite leg than the Tan side, where as if he kicks with the same side as the Tan arm hes open to getting crossed up. Not certain, nothings 100% but more open.

Like i said we (well some) try to avoid situations where we get crossed hands dont we....why a different approach to hands and feet in contact ?

I dont find it far fetched at all, given similar techs are used with the hands to stuff follow up punches from opponents....why not the front kick...

The range is there, the contact is there, there is enough timing.....

Im ok if you dont agree, my purpose was to get others opinions so that answers my question.
Cheers

DREW

[Ali. R]

I’m still waiting for more opinions… Hush now what’s that sound (sounds like crickets to me), everybody look what’s going down…

I like the fact that you put my name next to the word great, I must be doing something right… In case you didn’t know, I’m just an average everyday person just like anyone else…

Hey man, I’m just fu*king with you. NOT

Ali Rahim.

[couch]

My point is hes more protected if he kicks with the opposite leg than the Tan side, where as if he kicks with the same side as the Tan arm hes open to getting crossed up. Not certain, nothings 100% but more open.

DREW

I've never thought about this and appreciate your insight. I'm going to play around with the energy of this when I'm tossed around and see what comes of it.

Thanks Drew,
Kenton

[SAAMAG]

Interesting conversation has developed.

I've always thought of the hands and feet (in wing chun) as being separate entities and while each can coordinate with the other to achieve a goal they can also do achieve different goals simultaneously as well. The rule of thumb is to let the opponent determine what is necessary...and not preemptively choose a combination of movements.

I use lap sao alot when I use jing geuk and I don't care particularly which stance I'm in relative to the hand movement. It's whatever is the closest foot is to the closest target. I can use tan as well...but it's just not commonly done with me as like to control the body when I'm kicking wing chun style.

So say it's a right hand side tan / lap form, leg that will kick will usually be the right leg as well simply due to the mechanics of the lap sao. Again I've never really used a wing chun front kick without controlling the body...so it's weird to me to use a jing gurk with a tan sao "block" and nothing more.

I'll play around with it as well tonight at my MT gym (it's the only place where I can find guys who aren't afraid to hit each other...)

[k gledhill]

lop saoing is reserved for turning an opponent ..
jut sao is the primary tool when fighting the flanks , because it doesn't take us off line to our striking/deflecting path ...jut feed's back into the strike of the partnership to recover the sequence/flow in the direction of the attack...the whole lop idea is misused by many.
Ive used lop in fights and if I missed the hand I would chase 'space' a jut if it misses simple fires on the line miss or jut .

[Graychuan]

Interesting conversation has developed.

I've always thought of the hands and feet (in wing chun) as being separate entities and while each can coordinate with the other to achieve a goal they can also do achieve different goals simultaneously as well. The rule of thumb is to let the opponent determine what is necessary...and not preemptively choose a combination of movements.....

THIS CLIP here is a few months later than the first but it has some of the hands/feet drills we do.

[SAAMAG]

lop saoing is reserved for turning an opponent ..
jut sao is the primary tool when fighting the flanks , because it doesn't take us off line to our striking/deflecting path ...jut feed's back into the strike of the partnership to recover the sequence/flow in the direction of the attack...the whole lop idea is misused by many.
Ive used lop in fights and if I missed the hand I would chase 'space' a jut if it misses simple fires on the line miss or jut .

I'm not sure if you're implying something with your response in my use of lop sao or if you're making a general observation about people's use of it. Either way, in that regard I don't think there is a way to "misuse" it. You use it, and it will either put you in a more advantageous position, or a less advantageous position. If it's the latter, you know not to use it like that again against that opponent.

For my use of lop sao, I want to turn the opponent when I kick them to hit the side of the knee/leg and to allow me to take the outside gate. I don't typically just kick straight on at close range, as that increases the risks of being dropped while on one leg (At least while fighting people that like to try and take me down...I suppose against another wing chun guy it would be different).

[SAAMAG]

THIS CLIP here is a few months later than the first but it has some of the hands/feet drills we do.

At about 1:50 I started seeing pretty much what I'm talking about...that's a pretty common and accepted method of employing the jing gurk. I liked the way your intent was there to control the leading arm while at the same time kicking.

I like the Spontaneity! Now if you want to try something more fun and more challenging...do the same drill with someone who attacks any way they choose (I.E. not using chung kuen as the only punching method). Let them punch any way they want, kick any way they want, let them try to grap you, etc. It's harder to keep "the flow" when they start doing clinching and grappling, but with the punches and kicks as long as your partner can keep up it's a good workout and helps to improve synaptic reaction time to the visual cues presented.

OH...I forgot to mention that eventually the person gets to wear gloves and actually gets to hit you at speed. Wear your mouthpiece!

[Ali. R]

I don't typically just kick straight on at close range, as that increases the risks of being dropped while on one leg (At least while fighting people that like to try and take me down...I suppose against another wing chun guy it would be different).

It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact …

When attacking close up; one should try to start off with the hands, which pre-occupies your opponents thoughts, then the feet follows the hands after your opponents first block or after the first contact is made…

When under attack; then one chooses to kick (up close); one should stop the strikes first, or simultaneously strike and kick their opponent…

It wont make a difference in which system one is fighting, at least not with me or many other wing chun practitioners out there unless, if they do as you say; take it too a another level way before the first one is understood well enough, insubordination through deviation for self gratification… I’m sure he wouldn’t take that route…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact …

When attacking close up; one should try to start off with the hands, which pre-occupies your opponents thoughts, then the feet follows the hands after your opponents first block or after the first contact is made…

When under attack; then one chooses to kick (up close); one should stop the strikes first, or simultaneously strike and kick their opponent…

It wont make a difference what system one is fighting, at least not with me or many other wing chun practitioners out there unless, they do as you say; take it too a another level way before the first one is understood well enough, insubordination through deviation for self gratification… I’m sure he wouldn’t take that route…


Ali Rahim.

Ali...I understand what you're saying with preoccupying the upper gates before going low, and it's a solid theory that I agree with.

Now If I understand you correctly on the middle part of that...your opinion is that it doesn't make a difference which techniques are given to you or your students? That's not entirely true of most people...but you seem to think otherwise...fair enough.

But the latter part puzzles me..."take it to another level before it's understood"? That's a bit contradicting of your first statement that you and your boys can handle any attack in that drill. If the skill level is such that one doesn't even need to bother practicing defending against various attacks, how could one not understand what they're doing? Seems odd to me.

And if you think that it's "insubordination through deviation for self gratification" to change up your drills and find ways to vary your training...then it's not his "self gratification" that needs to be worried about...it's yours.

Personally, I always try to have my students progress when they're ready...and I think that Greychuan would do just fine with a little more variety in the attacks presented to him. It's not like I'm telling him to have someone go balls to the walls with him...just giving him an IDEA to work with to make his training more fun and possibly more productive.

OH...and one last thing....WTF does "It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact" mean in relation to my post? What exactly are you trying to say there?