This man has wing chun skills

[WaveWingChun]

In regards to the free throw analogy, Shaq was a great free throw shooter in the gym, doing the drills and we all saw how he was during the game.
Magic Johnson and Larry Bird ( to name just two), had excellent % in both drills AND game time.
The difference?
During the drills MJ and LB did them as if they were in a game.

First off, I think you're wrong about Shaq. He is horrible all around in free throw shooting. That's why he made excuses like "my hands are too big." However, even if he shot 100% in the gym, the exception does not prove the rule. Larry Bird and Magic would not have been so competent during the game if they didn't drill out of the game. Sure there are going to be people who can't take practice and translate it to real time. However, there is no way you can do real time without the practice, unless you are a genius like John McEnroe.

[sanjuro_ronin]

First off, I think you're wrong about Shaq. He is horrible all around in free throw shooting. That's why he made excuses like "my hands are too big." However, even if he shot 100% in the gym, the exception does not prove the rule. Larry Bird and Magic would not have been so competent during the game if they didn't drill out of the game. Sure there are going to be people who can't take practice and translate it to real time. However, there is no way you can do real time without the practice, unless you are a genius like John McEnroe.

I think you missed my point.

[WaveWingChun]

I think you missed my point.

Your point, I believe, is that Magic practiced like it was a game. So therefore, sparring as opposed to drills is important. Is that right? I would agree with that to a certain extent. However, I don't think there is anyway, unless Magic has 50 thousand people on the payroll to boo him during free throw practice, to duplicate a real time situation. Sparring is obviously a lot closer to a real fight. My point is that it is necessary to drill and practice without pressure so that you can build a foundation for success when there is pressure. My other point was that drills and chi sao build your Wing Chun skill. Just because it's not done in an actual fight doesn't mean the skill isn't there.

[k gledhill]

Terrence is correct, the demo of chi sau doesn't show how good he is at fighting. This is why there are lots of demos of chi sau but almost none of fighting. Simple really.

K gledhill, elbows/wrists is just speculation until someone does something with it

so you dont know

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your point, I believe, is that Magic practiced like it was a game. So therefore, sparring as opposed to drills is important. Is that right? I would agree with that to a certain extent. However, I don't think there is anyway, unless Magic has 50 thousand people on the payroll to boo him during free throw practice, to duplicate a real time situation. Sparring is obviously a lot closer to a real fight. My point is that it is necessary to drill and practice without pressure so that you can build a foundation for success when there is pressure. My other point was that drills and chi sao build your Wing Chun skill. Just because it's not done in an actual fight doesn't mean the skill isn't there.

So we both have a point and we both think Shaq sucked.
I am a happy camper

[Graychuan]

Greychaun,

I no longer do chi sao

And this is exactly why you need not make any comments one way or the other. You dont practice Chi Sao therefore you have no knowledge of how it 'works' or doesnt 'work'.

You can't develop realistic (fighting) skills via chi sao, only via fighting/sparring (realistic training).

....and what the hell do you think chi sao is? NOW Im starting to see your problem. Oh! How do you not hear the grasshopper at your feet?

Once you've learned the movement and can perform it in the unrealistic, artificial exercise that is chi sao, it is time to move on. To stay there, to continue doing chi sao, is to stop your growth in terms of developing fighitng skills.

... and how do you know that Chunnas dont do this? What makes you think that any martial art doesnt do this?
Have YOU done it? Was it successful? Probably not. But then that was Wing Chun's fault ,right? It had absolutly nothing to do with the 25 plus years you say you have devoted to an art. You are an attourney...an educated man, schooled in logic and should be used to a higher level of thinking...YET you spent 25 plus years on an art that you claim doesnt work. Why did you do this? Surely if it doesnt work then you would have figured it out a lot sooner.
Lets face it...I can't engineer a plan to put a man on the moon, but I know bull @ # $ % when I see it. And it would not have taken 25 plus years.

WING CHUN is not your problem.

In fact, my view is that chi sao isn't even a very good learning platform.

...I'll just put this one on ice. It'll come back to haunt you.

Of course, don't take my word for it, just go to a good muay thai or MMA school, and see if you can do in fighting those things you can do so well in chi sao. You'll see.

...zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ

The goal of martial art training is to develop fighting skills, not artificial, unrealistic drill skills. You don't judge how good a boxer is except through his performance boxing or a wrestler except through his performance wrestling. The only way to see skill, to see performance ability, is by and through performance. In the martial arts, that performance is fighting. If you can't do it in fighting, you have no skill.

You haven't seen me "in action" because you haven't come to see me. If you are interested, pay me a visit. Or, make it easier on yourself and go to a good MMA or MT school and see. Either way, you'll get the same experience.

Now why would I come see you? I doubt you would really even want this to happen. Something tells me you have had a bad experience with this or something. You are way past 'vendetta' stage against Wing Chun and I dont know why.

Good luck to you ,T.

[Ali. R]

Interesting, I have been to Magic Johnson’s basketball camps for 6 years in a row coming up in Detroit and growing up in the same area has him, our high schools actually played each other…

When I say that I went too his camps, I mean I actually work there each summer… I’ve played with the man and practice with him also, what you are saying about him is true…

Magic Johnson is a team player and he has prove that over and over again through his passing while in the game… Too make such high percentage in assist shows that he really drills his understanding of the plays…

All we did was drills and more drills, but too make the cut you had too have a game heart and if anyone deviates from the drills, they were gone that day… If you don’t drill then how can anyone execute the game plan?

Almost everything in life has drills too comprehend an understanding or procedure… In life everything is based on a fundamental standpoint, it’s not always about advancement, because most of us have too deal with what is handed to us and nothing more…

The more that ones fundamentals and basic are sound, the more that one would be better off in life, and never forget where you’re from and who you are… If one trained in something and made it theirs, why give up something for a so-called advancement, when it’s the fundamentals and basic in life that makes one shine…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Greychaun,

I know you are happy with your fantasy-based wing chun, so why do you want to discuss things with me?

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

I know you will never come to visit me or go spar at a good MMA or MT school; you don't practice WCK. You practice the curriculum of WCK, over and over and over. Keep repeating those forms, keep doing the drills, etc. This is what fantasy-based people do. And they derive their fantasy-based "knowledge" and skills from that practice. If you're happy doing that, do it. That's fine. But that doesn't produce good skills. Never has.

I've never said WCK doesn't work. I've said that the traditional martial art training regimen doesn't produce good fighting skills. You can make WCK work -- by training it like a modern fighter trains. I've met others besides my group that does that. They're out there.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end

I attack you, you try to stop me, what you put in my way is for 'no mind' to fight.

how good is your attack ? do you stand and roll with wrist energy ? is that attacking striking ? why elbows ?

wrist stickers or elbow developers = 2 very different fighters.

[Graychuan]

Greychaun,

I know you are happy with your fantasy-based wing chun, so why do you want to discuss things with me?

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

I know you will never come to visit me or go spar at a good MMA or MT school; you don't practice WCK. You practice the curriculum of WCK, over and over and over. Keep repeating those forms, keep doing the drills, etc. This is what fantasy-based people do. And they derive their fantasy-based "knowledge" and skills from that practice. If you're happy doing that, do it. That's fine. But that doesn't produce good skills. Never has.

I've never said WCK doesn't work. I've said that the traditional martial art training regimen doesn't produce good fighting skills. You can make WCK work -- by training it like a modern fighter trains. I've met others besides my group that does that. They're out there.

The only fantasy here is my thinking that you can actually converse about Wing Chun. Sorry to waste your time.

Peace.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end

I attack you, you try to stop me, what you put in my way is for 'no mind' to fight.

how good is your attack ? do you stand and roll with wrist energy ? is that attacking striking ? why elbows ?

wrist stickers or elbow developers = 2 very different fighters.

So is the guy with a chair or baseball bat or rabid wet badger !

[Graychuan]

I like how he attacks structure with his bridging. He used the Bong-Sao really good with a bracing step forward toward his partner. I also liked that slap and chop off of the lan-sao bridge just like out of the wooden man form. Cool stuff.

[WaveWingChun]

Greychaun,

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

Chi Sao, to me, is like an excercise that an artist will do. It starts off as limited due to your limited skill level, but then it grows into almost anything you want it to because your skill level has grown. Picasso could paint some crazy stuff, but he could only do that because he knew how to figure draw with a pencil. (I know, I'm becoming the analogy guy here) Same thing with Chi Sao. The more Wing Chun you know the more you can do with it. It's like when you first start doing it with your Sifu he takes it easy on you. When you get more skill he all of the sudden ramps it up on you. Wing Chun is principle based. As long as you follow those principles, you can go anywhere. That's why it's so cool. It's limitless.

[Graychuan]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end

When did anyone in here every say anyhting different? The start of this thread was' This man has skills'. When did anyone here try to say that this was fighting. It translates into fighting yes. And whether you like it or not Chi Sao is a method of training to fight.
K Gled, you and T need to stop trying to put wordz in peeps mouths. We are ok with the fact that you dont understand how Chi Sao translates into fighting. Its ok. Really. So when there is a thread that is discussing Chi-Sao we will also be ok with you not contributing since you never have any intention of discussing Chi Sao AND since you have already told us your 'view is that chi sao isnt even a very good training platform' (Its back...Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!)

You dont see me in the MMA forums trying to preach about how thier training methods dont work even tho I dont even do MMA*(As you dont do CHI SAO).

Please leave us to our discussion.

* Maybe this is a subject for another thread, however this craze about Mixed Martial Arts is fundamentally flawed anyway since most of the 'artists' that practice them have not practiced anything long enuff to even understand the fundamentals on ONE art let alone the principles of more than one. As far as I am concerned there are very few peeps that even have the right to talk about mixing arts anyways. This is my $.02.

[Graychuan]

... The more Wing Chun you know the more you can do with it...

What HE said...!