This man has wing chun skills

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why don’t you make a clip, and I’m sure you wouldn’t have to go through those stipulations and loops?


Ali Rahim.

Hmmm, one wonders...
Context tends to drive things, I recall getting "reamed" over a clip I made ( for another forum) showing how to apply "short power" in combinations on the HB.

[Ali. R]

Hmmm, one wonders...
Context tends to drive things, I recall getting "reamed" over a clip I made ( for another forum) showing how to apply "short power" in combinations on the HB.

LOL...

At least they didn’t get you before you put a clip up…

You take care; it was nice speaking with you.


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL...

At least they didn’t get you before you put a clip up…

You take care; it was nice speaking with you.


Ali Rahim.

Actually, if I remember it was Dale that tried to ream me about my "lack of power", but it didn't work out very well for him.
Context thing again.

Good chatting with you too.

[k gledhill]

just rattling cages no law against using looks like a rattled yours
you dont sound like you would know either way

[k gledhill]

Terrence is correct, the demo of chi sau doesn't show how good he is at fighting. This is why there are lots of demos of chi sau but almost none of fighting. Simple really.

K gledhill, elbows/wrists is just speculation until someone does something with it

you say it yourself ...just speculation ? so you dont know one from the other .

[guy b.]

you say it yourself ...just speculation ? so you dont know one from the other .

Not at all. I know what I do and what my reasons for doing it are. I have no experience of wrist to wrist contact in chi sau so I wouldn't comment on this person's skill just by watching a chi sau clip. For all I know he might be able to make it work in fighting. It is speculation to judge fighting ability on a limited drill just because a person doesn't do things the same way you do.

Plainly stating why you think something is wrong (eg wrist contact) or just shutting up are both good options. Hinting at secret knowledge which just happens to be very trivial makes you look like a gloating idiot.

[k gledhill]

...not being able to give a clear reason for either shows you don't know what your talking about enough to give a clear rational answer ...so resort to typical personal slant of insinuating I have no intelligence factor worth rating

I'm simply asking you to ask yourself , whats being done beyond what you see on the surface ? classic sticky , hand chasing with no idea of the bridge to free-fighting or a developmental tool to make ones attack more efficient ?

its a simple thing to see beyond wrist or elbow..how people use certain actions/move in chi-sao....I lived in London for 15 years so i know the idea or not being done not speculation on my part ... been there done that ...


trivial ? its the whole IDEA from beginning to end ....the simple idea ....trivial ?

wrist or elbow = 2 different fighters


sounds like you want me to explain to you or shut up ?

what would you like to hear ? the thinking or me shut up ?

[KPM]

...
I'm simply asking you to ask yourself , whats being done beyond what you see on the surface ? classic sticky , hand chasing with no idea of the bridge to free-fighting or a developmental tool to make ones attack more efficient ?

I think I follow what you're saying.......what is the attitude/emphasis? Is Chi Sao a means to an end, or an end in and of itself? I've seen people that were very good at Chi Sao. They can do all kinds of complicated techniques and responses. But how many of those complicated Chi Sao moves actually apply to real fighting? Chi Sao should develop contact reflex, the ability to sense an opening in the opponent's defense and the ability to overcome an obstruction in order to hit the opponent. It shouldn't consist of a whole lot of complicated prearranged responses to various attacks.

[k gledhill]

exactly ...but there is a developmental path in stages to develop this ability, that simply put gets lost or isn't understood clearly , so the players go into using each other as platform for energy ...using wrists to seek out a place to rest the force ...rather than the other idea

wristing or elbow idea what are you developing ? whats the difference ? not gloating its asking you ..what do you think you are doing ? do you know ? what is the outcome ?

an attack system that functions in freefighting or hand patty cake ?

[Graychuan]

The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.

The drills in WC and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the ‘complicated prearranged responses’ of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don’t see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That’s why SLT doesn’t trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?

Chi-Sao is Wing Chun’s way to answer these questions.
There is no skill without understanding.

[guy b.]

OBVIOUSLY chi sau is a means to an end. Obviously it isn't fighting. If you work with elbow contact in chi sau you are developing the ability to hit while making it very difficult for anyone to hit back, this is all. It is about hitting, not some lame type of wrestling like chi sau often becomes. You are hitting down angles you have control of from a close range. That's wing chun. You don't want to stick to anything.

If you work at wrist contact distance I don't see how you can control the angles, but who knows.

[SAAMAG]

The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.

The drills in WC and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then when the muscle memory is ingrained then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the ‘complicated prearranged responses’ of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don’t see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That’s why SLT doesn’t trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?

Chi-Sao is Wing Chun’s way to answer these questions.
There is no skill without understanding.

Good explanation.

From that grain--when people complain about forms and talk about boxer's and such having no forms--take a look at the focus mitt drills, or when they hit the heavy bag. Those repetitive combinations are creating a muscle memory "form" that boxer's often repeat in their performance of the sport.

Chi sao is there to help engrain fighting attributes used in WING CHUN. The only thing I don't like about complicated hand movements though -- is that 90% of the time they won't work in real application against a non-chunner. The more complicated something is the less likely it is to succeed. Also keep in mind that those 30 hit arm combo's have zero power due to natural laws of human musculature function.

[Graychuan]

If you work at wrist contact distance I don't see how you can control the angles...

By sticking and bridgewalking. Chi-Sao teaches this.

[Ali. R]

Chi sao is there to help engrain fighting attributes used in WING CHUN. The only thing I don't like about complicated hand movements though -- is that 90% of the time they won't work in real application against a non-chunner.

That’s not true, I never had a problem putting anyone on their a$$ with my wing chun ability and tech that comes from my chi sao training, every attack that I use in chi sao, I can use in a fight…

That’s why we train in chi sao (sensitivity just as Aikido) so things wont become so complicated in the heat of battle, even when using advance techniques from the other forms; what some may call: complicated hand movements…

When something is truly understood then complication will not fall in that realm or ideal dealing with attack and defense… The more that one don’t understand the more complicated things can be or will get…

Wing Chun training is kind of like Aikido (receiving energies): you never see them spar or in tournaments, but yet they’re very affective in what they do because of their training methods in which is very similar to wing chun (receiving in coming force or energies)…

This is why most have to take it too the ground because of there lack of comprehension… If one deviate from forms, then they’ll deviate from structure, and if one deviate from structure, then one deviates from ideal…

(Sil Lum Tao; Little Ideal)= basic and fundamentals…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Wing Chun energies dealing with chi sao don’t come from the wrist, it comes from overall structure (body unity or connection through the stance) in which should be a basic understanding before going into chi sao…


Ali Rahim.