Any Judo guys in here?

[Oso]

yep, watching it now...pretty good stuff

[Kevin Huang]

Interesting that we have a thread asking if people practice "judo".

Does anybody here realize that Gracie jujitsu IS Kodokan Judo in its original form? Everything that the Gracies do, including their terminology, is pure Kodokan judo as taught to Carlson Gracie by Mitsuyoshi Maeda, a student of Jigoro Kano.

Compare the Kodokan textbook to the Gracie book. Though the Gracies don't initiate their moves out of the "seiza" (sitting on kneeling legs) posture, they have all the same mentality and rules and uniforms.

Tournament judo of the sort practiced in the Olympics is a far cry from the original purpose of Kodokan judo. There, simply throwing an opponent is enough. In the old days, a guy who got thrown would continue fighting even after his back touched the ground. What the Gracies do is exactly what judo was all about in the old days.

Thus anybody who's studied "gi" Gracie jujitsu is a sort of judo student, in my eyes.

[Water Dragon]

Not really, Kevin. The Gracies learned Judo in Brazil, but they began to focus heavily on the Newaza aspect whereas Judo began to focus more on Tachiwaza. Judo is better in standing, BJJ is better on the ground. Most people that are serious students of either art will eventually find their way to the 'other side'. You don't really here this debate in Judo or BJJ schools. My current BJJ coach teaches out of my Judo dojo. It's a good trend, and I'd like to see it grow as I think it's good for both sports.

[mawali]

Yep!

Ne waza is the part of Judo that people did not practice after modernization.
The Gracies continued with ne waza practice while others did not know about it or were not taught it! Mayy Japanese descendants in Brazil today are sons of those who left Japan fora better life and they carried Judo (at least those who knew or taught it) to their new home.

[SAAMAG]

Yes and no. Newaza was and has always been part of Judo. Kano changed the rules of the shiai's to limit the amount of newaza because the competitions were becoming predominantly newaza.

Maeda taught Gracies the newaza of judo, and the gracie's took that as their own and further developed their ground game. The names of the bjj techniques are not the same...and neither are the tactics or ruleset.

I very much like Judo...I just wish that the training of newaza to tachi waza was more evenly taught, because it just makes sense to continue after the throw.

[Kevin Huang]

Cool.

I didn't know about the "find their way to the other side" thing, but it makes PERFECT SENSE in light of what I've been seeing from both judo and BJJ practitioners.

I'm less focused on tournament practice than I am on the actual combat techniques utilized in both arts.

[SAAMAG]

Yep...most BJJ guys will have a black belt in Judo as well; and most schools will have a resident Judo BB.

All in all...they're cut from the same cloth.

[MightyB]

I posted this before, but it's relevant for this conversation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

[SAAMAG]

Thanks for the vid. Mifune is awesome. I'm going to try some of those submissions next time we do ne-waza.

There's a link on Judoinfo forums that has the dude's library that posted a WHOLE LOT of old school video like that. Worth a look. You can go to keepvid.com to save the file to your hard drive as well.

[Kevin Huang]

"All in all...they're cut from the same cloth."

That's what I have been saying from the beginning. But it totally doesn't matter anyway, for that's NOT what this discussion is about.

[SAAMAG]

Well...I made this thread to talk about anything revolving around judo (and I guess BJJ as well given that the newaza is part of judo).

So talk about whatever you want with those subjects.

[MightyB]

Thanks for the vid. Mifune is awesome. I'm going to try some of those submissions next time we do ne-waza.

There's a link on Judoinfo forums that has the dude's library that posted a WHOLE LOT of old school video like that. Worth a look. You can go to keepvid.com to save the file to your hard drive as well.

You're probably thinking about the old "Kosen Judo" videos with Kimura and his buddies that are being re-sold through Amazon and Barnes and Noble. If you go to google video and use the search term "Kosen Judo" they'll come up for free. There's talk in the Judo circles that Kosen Judo went the way of the albatross and doesn't exist anymore and to be wary of anyone who claims to teach it that isn't like 90 years old. IMO Kosen Judo still exists but it's now called BJJ.

[SAAMAG]

You're probably thinking about the old "Kosen Judo" videos with Kimura and his buddies that are being re-sold through Amazon and Barnes and Noble. If you go to google video and use the search term "Kosen Judo" they'll come up for free. There's talk in the Judo circles that Kosen Judo went the way of the albatross and doesn't exist anymore and to be wary of anyone who claims to teach it that isn't like 90 years old. IMO Kosen Judo still exists but it's now called BJJ.

The guy does have some kosen judo on there, but lot's of other stuff as well. Looks like the clip you showed has a different "author" though.

The essence of Kosen Judo may still exist perhaps, in the fact that it and BJJ both focus(ed) on newaza.

My understanding is that Kosen Judo never officially existed, it was just that the students that trained in that particular location preferred newaza or tachiwaza and spent more time training on the ground. It was never an official offset of Judo according to what I've learned.

A lot of the folks on the judoinfo forums tend to agree on that. There's a couple of pretty high ranking judo black belts on there that everyone seems to revere--a little too much if you ask me--but I'd still trust their judo knowledge over the average judoka.

[MightyB]

The guy does have some kosen judo on there, but lot's of other stuff as well. Looks like the clip you showed has a different "author" though.

The essence of Kosen Judo may still exist perhaps, in the fact that it and BJJ both focus(ed) on newaza.

My understanding is that Kosen Judo never officially existed, it was just that the students that trained in that particular location preferred newaza or tachiwaza and spent more time training on the ground. It was never an official offset of Judo according to what I've learned.

A lot of the folks on the judoinfo forums tend to agree on that. There's a couple of pretty high ranking judo black belts on there that everyone seems to revere--a little too much if you ask me--but I'd still trust their judo knowledge over the average judoka.

That's all true--- but, the "Kosen" style of Judo would be what we'd call Kodokan Judo today if Kano wouldn't have stepped in with the 1925 rules change. Kosen is the region where University students were using Newaza to beat bigger and stronger opponents. It was all Kodokan Judo using the then current Kodokan rules. Kano liked the big throws. BJJ really is "true-er" to the original pre 1925 Judo than what we practice as Kodokan Judo today. Originally there were no time limits on Newaza, and you could use techniques that were intended to initiate Newaza from a standing position (illegal now- to give you an idea of what I'm talking about- from a right handed standard grip, use your left hand to overhook his left, place your right foot on your opponent's left thigh, and fall to the ground while blocking his thigh so that he falls into Hiza Gatame-- you can't purposefully fall and drag an opponent into Newaza so although if you try what I just described and you will find that it's really effective, you can't use it)

[SAAMAG]

That's all true--- but, the "Kosen" style of Judo would be what we'd call Kodokan Judo today if Kano wouldn't have stepped in with the 1925 rules change. Kosen is the region where University students were using Newaza to beat bigger and stronger opponents. It was all Kodokan Judo using the then current Kodokan rules. Kano liked the big throws. BJJ really is "true-er" to the original pre 1925 Judo than what we practice as Kodokan Judo today. Originally there were no time limits on Newaza, and you could use techniques that were intended to initiate Newaza from a standing position (illegal now- to give you an idea of what I'm talking about- from a right handed standard grip, use your left hand to overhook his left, place your right foot on your opponent's left thigh, and fall to the ground while blocking his thigh so that he falls into Hiza Gatame-- you can't purposefully fall and drag an opponent into Newaza so although if you try what I just described and you will find that it's really effective, you can't use it)

Absolutely. In some ways I feel that Kano may have made a mistake in doing the rule change...because I think that fighting should be naturally able to flow and find it's own course. IF people were finding themselves using newaza to overcome their opponents, why not let it be that way then? Perhaps Judo then would have become more like BJJ now...but still containing the throws. I think it would have been a better evolution that the modern sport judo. Either that or they need to get rid of the newaza time limits. It's such a waste of skill development when they do that. And WTF is up with no leg attacks?! I still haven't figured that one out.