Great article about Judo...but applies to any martial art

[SAAMAG]

I guess what the upshot of all this rambling is that there will always be those who view anything new as not "authentic" and there will aways be those who view anything they consider "old-fashioned" as ineffective. Arrogance is a good companion for both those who lack knowledge and those who lack experience. To equate "proper technique" with something that doesn't work in a realistic situation is missing the point of why we train in judo, jujitsu and the martial arts. These things should be functional. Their function separates them from dancing, aerobics or other methods of physical education or recreation. If we're learning (or teaching) how to fight, then let's learn (or teach) how to fight effectively. Good technique is fundamental, but if it doesn't work, then it's not good technique.

Excerpt taken from: http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm

I was doing some research on Judo competition, and found something that looks like a ripe piece for a conversation starter! Sort of goes hand-in-hand with some of what's been floating around these forums lately. What say you, fellow chunners?!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have had 5 different judo instructors in my time, from 4dan to 8th dan, and they all taught the moves more or less the same way, principle wise at least.
But, when it came to doing it in a practical way (randori), they all did them different enough to be effective for them ( that is how they put it when I asked them).
See, Judo, like ever MA should be, is based on effectiveness.
It has to work.
It does work.
We know this because it is tested, every single time you randori.
Every move works.
Its up to YOU to make it work for YOU.
You will hardly ever see a textbook throw in judo, not unless there is a huge skill difference between the two players, but the core principles will all be there.
Makes sense though, a 6-4 250lbs judoka will apply a inner thigh throw a tad different than a 5-4 140lbs judoka.
The point is, you modify the technique (not the principles) to suit you BUT it MUST WORK.

[KPM]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

You make a valid point.
Just one thing though, you need to test yourself in a chosen system before you mix it up.
Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I find that if I truly wanna test SPECIFIC skills I need to compete in those areas and not MMA.
If I wanna test my striking, I compete in MT.
My submission grappling in NAGA
My wrestling in wrestling.
However, if I wanna test my overall skills, its MMA, no doubt.
BUT, do notice that the best MMA all have a solid core in a speciliazied system or systems like BJJ, Sambo, MT, etc.

[aaron baum]

wise words ronin...i agree...this is one of the main ideas behind our much loved chi sau comp at the weekend..lol...gave an arena for guys to test their ability to hold their base and use their control skills to set up an attack and strike...in a more pressurised situation....might not of looked pretty to those who dont see the true skill but reality is what you look for....its a good step on the way to mma which i agree is a more rounded test...in the same way chi sau is a helpful step between form and fighting....youre right the best mma guys have a base art and then build...it helps to have a reference point within yourself which links the other arts you use...

nice discussion

best

aaron

[t_niehoff]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

I think you are missing the larger picture. Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set. Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all. Chi sao is more like aikido's randori -- where people are moving and behaving in "preprogrammed" unrealistic ways. This is why you will see judoka in MMA but not aikidoka.

That skill set (judo) will transfer to any fighting situation that permits you to use them. And you can see many examples of good judoka being able to make use of their skills in MMA. However, there is more to fighting in MMA than that particular skill set; you'll need to be well-rounded as a fighter. It's the same for everyone, including boxers, kickboxers, BJJ fighters, MT fighters, wrestlers, and WCK fighters. If they don't have other parts of their games developed through cross-training, any decent competition will keep the fight from their strength. There are all kinds of examples of champion boxers, MT fighters, BJJ fighters, etc. who go into MMA bouts with less than well-rounded games and get beaten handily. It's not their skills that don't work; it that they are lacking skills in other parts of the game.

[Ali. R]

It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true.

Like one said (might), that word is very powerful in this situation, because; that makes this statement just as valid: True, because that doesn’t explain the Gracie’s training methods (similar) and wining so many tournaments way before their full-contact experiences in which they dominated and still are respected for years later... I would totally agree with that word (might)...

......when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

And so did others without the same training methods lose their first fight, and… The word (might) brings me to this conclusion that your statement is more or less your opinion or speculation, and then again I might be wrong (your experiences)? And if so, please enclose your video clip…

......I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

Like I said in so many words; we are all entitle too are own opinions…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like one said (might), that word is very powerful in this situation, because; that makes this statement just as valid: True, because that doesn’t explain the Gracie’s training methods (similar) and wining so many tournaments way before their full-contact experiences in which they dominated and still are respected for years later... I would totally agree with that word (might)...

I don't understand what you mean here...

[Ali. R]

I don't understand what you mean here...

Meaning the word (might), in the contents or terms that we are using; far as the subject at hand dealing with that quoted post that I used...

The situation could very well go both ways as demonstrated by the Gracie’s doing just the opposite as he explained as fact… Which obviously would bring anyone to the conclusion of speculation or opinion…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Meaning the word (might), in the contents or terms that we are using; far as the subject at hand dealing with that quoted post that I used...

The situation could very well go both ways as demonstrated by the Gracie’s doing just the opposite as he explained as fact…


Ali Rahim.

That is what is confusing me, how did the Gracie's do the opposite?

[Ali. R]

That is what is confusing me, how did the Gracie's do the opposite?

In meaning that tournament fighters don’t do as well when they get in the MMA game, in which the Gracie family and many more have proven that to be a false statement on numerals occasion…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Ummm...I'm lost too Ali.

The gracie's stated that their art of BJJ was superior to all others, Rickson (I think) designed the ultimate fighting cage / championship to showcase and prove that claim. They proved it for years, until finally the stand up fighters finally started to cross train into grappling, which now has forced the grapplers to also cross train in standup.

Each generation of fighters is making the caliber of every fighter better and better. It's a good thing to see over the years. It literally forces the competitors (who choose to go the MMA route) to mold themselves into a more complete and functional fighter, regardless of the specific core styles.

[Ali. R]

Ummm...I'm lost too Ali.

Maybe this is way:

(I think).

It really doesn’t make a difference on what the Gracie’s said, that does not combat the fact, in which they did what he said; cannot be done…

Welcome to the switch er-rooh ...


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Maybe this is way:



It really doesn’t make a difference on what the Gracie’s said, that does not combat the fact, in which they did what he said; cannot be done…

Welcome to the switch er-rooh ...


Ali Rahim.

Dude, for bing a black man from the U.S.A., you speak more cryptically than a 100 year old tibetan monk.

Just to set the record straight, I personaly don't like the Gracie camp's attitude in general as I think they're waaaay to arrogant, but they did expose a lot of fantasy that's been prevelant in the martial arts world for some time now.

But again, I'm not sure what you mean, what exactly are you saying, in plain english please, that the Gracie's said they could do but did not follow through with? Are you saying that because they were eventually beaten that their initial claim of superiority was false?

And what's with the switcharoo B.S. again?

[anerlich]

Not really the essence of the the OP's point (I think), but a few judo guys have done OK in MMA, e.g. Yoshida and Parisiyan. At least couple of the Gracies are Judo BB's as well.

One of my BJJ instructors collects old MA texts, and showed me a copy of the now out of print "Higher Judo", by Moshe Feldenkrais. It has lots of sweeps, triangle setups, etc. therein, certainly all the BJJ basics. The bases of Judo and BJJ are the same, as the history would indicate.

There's nothing that new in the statement quoted by the OP, though it is succinct. You have to pressure test your stuff against a resisting opponent. If it works, it works, whether its fresh as a daisy or old as the hills.

And as someone else said, "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid".