"Mastering Wing Chun" series review

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

I finally got around to putting up a review of the "Mastering Wing Chun" series on my website. No offense intended to Master Kwok. I just tell it like I see it.

Check it out here:

http://riograndewingchun.com/gpage.html

[RGVWingChun]

Well as Master Kwok's grandstudent and Sifu Tony Massengills student (Author and co-author respectively), I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the review only because I think the reviewer had an expectation of the videos that it was not intended by the authors to give. The purpose was to standardize what was Ip Man's Wing Chun Method, particularly the forms. Even the "slouch" was something that Ip Man himself did and taught. There are numerous photos of the Great Grandmaster is such a "slouch" position. The videos were not meant to be exhaustive (can you imagine the size of the DVD library it would take to explore that!!! Holy SCHNIKEE's)

As per the many different versions of Ip Man's methods...you have to remember that only 4 people en toto completed the system under him, including his own son, Ip Ching. Many MANY MANY people - even the early students of foshan trained with him only for a while but did not finish. They say "well he taught me this" but Ip Chun has gone on record saying that his father did not teach different things to different people. According to Ip Chun, his oldest son, that would have made his father dishonest. According to his sons, Ip Man would teach a person the correct method...if they veered into error, he would correct them. If they persisted a third time, Ip Man would allow them to continue into error. He was a very stern teacher and somewhat of a perfectionist it seems (This is from Ip Chun's book "Wing Chun" with Danny Connor). From what I have been told, many of the "early" students didnt' finish the system. That is why their Chum Kiu's and Biu Jees and Mook Yan Jong forms, and the pole and especially the knives look COMPLETELY different!!! Ip Ching has told the history of Wing Chun before and related this exact story. Ip Ching lived and trained with his father for 10 straight years recieving intimate knowledge of his Father's own kung fu. Ip Ching lived with Ip Man night and day and according to Ip Ching "training till 3 in the morning" (1999 VTAA World Conference, after Biu Jee demonstration). The truth is out there, but there are many people who are using Ip Man's name to give credibility to things that Ip Man never taught!! There are people with kicks in their Siu Lim Tao form for crying out loud saying that that is what they learned from Ip Man "training with him night and day for 9 months before leaving to America"....come on!!!

The purpose of the videos was to standardize the forms that Ip Man taught. Those were the order of movements that he taught. That was even the purpose of attempting to get all of the forms on 8mm just before Ip Man passed away. At that time, people were already starting to branch away and say they learned from Ip Man. Funny how people's Siu Lim Tao or Chum Kiu doesn't look like Ip Man's? Could it be that even Ip Man isn't doing Ip Man Wing Chun?

As for the Chi sao explanations, there is a further video series on chi sao that was just filmed and will be released later this year as well as a two DVD (I believe its two) that will be on the Mook Yan Jong (according to Ip Man, Ip Ching has some slight differences that he introduced as well in the biu jee form which Master Kwok acknowledges in the Biu Gee DVD).

Master Kwok will be in TExas in October of this coming year for a seminar (2 days maybe!!), hopefully with Master Massengill as well. He can tell you himself that he has trained with some of the early students with the intentions to track down Ip Man's wing chun. That is his personal quest; to find the true Ip Man System. He's found that in BOTH of Ip Man's sons, Grandmasters Ip Chun and Ip Ching.

Respectfully submitted,

Moses Flores
Texas Representative
Traditional Ip Man Wing Chun Assocation, Samuel Kwok Wing Chun Martial Arts Assocation

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . As per the many different versions of Ip Man's methods...you have to remember that only 4 people en toto completed the system under him, including his own son, Ip Ching. Many MANY MANY people - even the early students of foshan trained with him only for a while but did not finish. . . . .

It's very naive to say who got what from Yip Man. No one can know for sure. We ALL rely on what we were told.
It's common among Chinese Sifus of all styles to protect their "rice bowl" with claims of superior knowledge of their system. Claims/status mean nothing to me. What matters is did they go out and fight to test what they learned? I personally would want to study with the WC Sifus who actually fought for real. I'd never learn swimming from someone who never swam.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It very naive to say who got what from Yip Man. No one can know for sure. We ALL rely on what we were told.
It's common among Chinese Sifus of all styles to protect their "rice bowl" with claims of superior knowledge of their system. Claims/status mean nothing to me. What matters is did they go out and fight to test what they learned? I personally would want to study with the WC Sifus who actually fought for real. I'd never learn swimming from someone who never swam.

And still swimming or able to swim too.

[Phil Redmond]

And still swimming or able to swim too.

Thinking on your feet again I see.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thinking on your feet again I see.

Or in the water, as the case may be .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Guys!

I finally got around to putting up a review of the "Mastering Wing Chun" series on my website. No offense intended to Master Kwok. I just tell it like I see it.

Check it out here:

http://riograndewingchun.com/gpage.html

I have quite a few dvd''s series from various MA and I must say that, in terms of quality and instructional value, the vast majority of TCMA ones are far inferior to the other systems.
The exception being Wing Lam's stuff.
I don't know if it is on purpose or simple because they are more demos clips than instructionlas or maybe because they are "cheaper production value".
Whatever the reason I think that anyone deciding to make a video should remember one simple thing:
This video is what you and your MA will be judged on by many AND it may will be your "legacy".

[KPM]

Hi Moses!

Thanks for your feedback. As I said, no offense intended to Samuel Kwok or Tony Massengill. Maybe I did have the wrong expectations. But I stand by my assessment that the videos could have been done in a way to "spice them up" and make them more interesting. Alternate screen shot angles would have helped. Captioning for the terminology used would have helped. Simply organizing the material presented in a better way would have helped.

I also stand by my impression that Ip Man likely taught things a little differently at different stages of his career or to different people. Ip Man had a long teaching career. It just stands to reason that he adjusted and modified some things over the years. After all, Wong Shun Leung and Leung Sheung are considered by most to be two of Ip Man's top students. Yet their Wing Chun is somewhat different. A part of this may be their own personal interpretation and expression, but a part may also be how they were taught.

As far as the "Wing Chun slouch"....yes I have noted that pictures of Ip Man in his final years show him prominently in this posture. That doesn't change the fact that is it not the best biomechanics. You can read why I think this way on my website. Is it a Wing Chun "sin" to suggest that Ip Man himself could have done things better?

[RGVWingChun]

Hi Keith,

I certainly wouldn't say that it is a sin to say that Ip Man could have done things a little differently. After all, his son Ip Ching did change some the performance of some of the techniques in the forms for added power (eg. the Biu Punch as demonstrated in the 1999 VTAA world conference, as well as adding more Yiu Ma) as Ip Ching was taller (5'10" compared to Ip Man's 5'4" stature)and the uppercut punch did not suit him. According to him, he changed that with the approval of his father...I do know that Ip Man did remove the metaphysical language in wing chun including the 5 elements as he felt that it only confused the learning process (IP Ching has this documented in an article about Ip Man on the VTAA website). Ip Chun relates the same story in his book "Wing Chun". Also in that book, Danny Connor was able to interview some of the early Fosham students and their impression of the Hong Kong students saying that while they do not use the same language to describe the techniques, they still use the same techniques.

Its too bad that more of Ip Man's method was not documented before he passed away, but we at least have his Siu Lim Tao form and his Chum Kiu form and Mook Yan Jong (though the video most people see seems a bit disjointed at times). It would have been great to see his biu jee form (though the students that completed under him seem to be pretty uniform on that with the exception of the form order and the biu punch for Ip Ching), and his pole form and Baat Cham Do. Again, I would also have to point out that only 4 people completed all the way to the knives with him. BUT, he did pass on his knives to Ip Ching as well as some kung fu manuals and the 8mm film was given to Ip Ching's family. Master Kwok now has Ip Man's knives as well as other priceless wing chun material from Ip Man that were gifts from his teacher, Ip Ching (as seen in the Photo album section on the Mastering Wing Chun book).

I'll take a look at the article on the slouch sometime. God bless

Moses

[Sifu MASS]

Hi Guys,

I must agree with Keith on the production quality in some ways. I myself was a bit disappointed when I saw them. But Master Kwok had nothing to do with the production or layout. The editing was done by the producers of the DVD series, Empire Media.

As for the content. There are two more DVDs in production, one on Chi Sao and the other on the Jong. Please don't expect Slow Motion, Special Effects, Explosions, Car Chases or any thing like that. From my understanding, George Lucas still doesn't work for Empire Media. So if you have an interest in these DVDs, please purchase them for the Wing chun and not for the apparently expected dazzling video effects.

Master Kwok teaches the system as it has been passed to him through Ip Chun, Ip Ching and hours of training and research with other first generation students of Ip Man, including Wong Shun Leung.

I can personally attest to his mastery of the system, and have seen him cross hands with literally hundreds of people in Hong Kong and Foshan. His Wing Chun is first rate.

As for "The background of Ip Chun and Ip Ching" the questions of their depth of training is usually brought up by people who are trying to inflate their own prowess. I think it defies common sense to suggest that Ip Man wouldn't teach his sons. Ip Ching shared a home with his father for almost 10 years. He was present and used as a training partner during many of Ip Man's private sessions with other students. But, everyone needs to make up their own mind as to who to believe and follow in their search for Wing Chun.

As for me, I wish everyone success in their training, and hope that we can in some way help to at least clarify our way of doing the system.

God Bless

-Tony Massengill

[aelward]

RGV:

Do you not see the irony in some of your statements? You say that Sifu Kwok's purpose in creating these videos was to standardize the forms to be exactly the way that Yip Man did them. Yet, you also say that Ip Ching changed his Biu Jee uppercut to a punch and added more waist power-- all with his father's approval because he was taller. So will you teach your taller students the straight punch and shorter students the uppercut? Which one becomes "the standard"?

Further, Yip Man made changes to his own forms-- the early students were taught jum sao after tan sao in section 3 part 2 of Siu Lum Tao. After Wong's fight, some people changed it to Gang Sao with Yip Man's permission. Other students wondered if that tan sao should come out with the palm down or with the palm up -- Yip man said it didn't matter. These are both well-known stories.

So all these people who learned differently will stick to what they were taught. Does that make them wrong?

When Ip Chun may say that his father did not teach anyone differently-- but he was not even in Hong Kong for the first 12 years. And, all those senior students say that Yip Man emphasized different aspects based on body type and character. Doesn't that correspond with him approving of his son's change of the Biu Jee form based on his size?

My personal opinion is that a lot of practitioners and teachers who do forms and applications about 90% the same. That 10% difference can become dogmatic lines of division; but it also has the potential to be a diversity that enriches our own understanding, interpretation and application of Wing Chun.

[aelward]

Hi Guys,
As for "The background of Ip Chun and Ip Ching" the questions of their depth of training is usually brought up by people who are trying to inflate their own prowess. I think it defies common sense to suggest that Ip Man wouldn't teach his sons. Ip Ching shared a home with his father for almost 10 years. He was present and used as a training partner during many of Ip Man's private sessions with other students. But, everyone needs to make up their own mind as to who to believe and follow in their search for Wing Chun.

I would hazard to guess that a lot of the negativity toward the Ip brothers comes not from anything they have said or done; but is based on the actions of some of their students who continually promoted themselves up as the ONLY lineage teaching AUTHENTIC Ip Man Wing Chun. While the most blatant of these has passed on, the negativity he planted (and which has torn his own organization apart) did not sit well with a lot of Yip Man's students who did not realize that these issues stemmed from a student and not the brothers themselves.

They were probably thinking, "the brothers were not even here when we were learning, who are they to say what we know or don't know?" And that's how the stories start. It should be a valuable lesson in how we should not promote our art.