"Mastering Wing Chun" series review

[LoneTiger108]

... This young man called my school and inquired as to the lineage of our school. Needless to say, he was very happy to find a "Ip Man Wing Chun" school in which he could continue his training.

He stated that he had been training for 2 1/2 years and was finished with Chum Kiu and just beginning the training of Biu Gee. So he was excited to find a school that could pick up his training where he had left off.

When he came in and demonstrated his forms, they were no where near the forms as Ip Man had performed them on the 8MM film he did for his sons, which was the standard we use in the school...

...I asked the gentleman if he had ever seen Ip Man do the forms. He stated that he had not. So I showed him my copy of the footage. He was heartbroken and upset.

Minor changes are to be expected, but if one is doing what they are calling "Ip Man Wing Chun" it should have some resemblance to what Ip Man left behind on film. It was important enough to Ip Man to get out of what was essentially his death bed and put the forms on film. I believe he had a good reason for doing this.

-Tony

A refreshing read Tony, and a change to what I've been viewing lately!

I only comment here in support of what you mention about Ip Mans 8mm footage. I also believe he had very good reasons for putting these 'images' on film as a 'standard'. He must've known that he had little time left as this had NEVER been done before.

I think the problems really surface when students advance so quickly within the style. As the man who visited you mentioned, he had 'finished' Chum Kiu in 2 1/2 years! I was still floating around Siu Lim Tao at that time and wasn't interested in Chum Kiu at all! His Teacher obviously had developed his own take on what certain sets were for, which is fine, but I do feel that the forms should be kept close to Ip Mans image at the beginning. I've always been taught this, and I'm from the Lee Shing Family who are themselves linked to Ip Man for this reason (We have our own salutations though!)

This 'lean' concept too I feel is misunderstood by many. Has nobody ever thought that this was a preferred position of Ip Man? From what little I know, by gaining familiarity with this position it will allow you to spring forwards without warning, especially if a person leans into you or follows your hands.

BTW The tape idea was thought of by other past Teachers too, they are a great way to preserve their original forms and exercises imho.

[k gledhill]

by trying to keep and developing this elbows on an imaginary centerline idea, we open our backs out , spread the lats and contract the pectoralis muscles/chest muscles..a personal trainers posture nightmare ...
Elbows in corresponds to what muscle groups act to make this happen ie the shoulder girdle or thee whole upper shoulder muscle group . This includes the muscles in back on the sides and infront on top...all acting to allow a certain position and maintain it. The hands /wrists are not in the equation because like bullets they simply replace themselves in alternate lead strikes ...

the basic training starts with SLT to learn to do the elbow/line idea...not anything about chi-or tricks.

The basic line we draw before every form is double man/bil/strike sao-back to vu sao/recover /free hand to strike again...one can repeat this ...then later in the SLT we learn the 'shaving hand' this isnt down its forwards alternating the same first actions of the forms to strike and recover , strike and recover ..repeat...

while doing the basic levels in dan chi , we need to get the elbow along the centerline to 'develop' further this idea . While maintaining a distance that doesnt allow contact by mistake , simply to allow each partner to feel the force that is required to keep the elbow on the line while the hand points to the chin of the other for the next stage of 1 punch training ....alignmnet while covering the relative line to the target before firing...
the tan saoer trains 2 stage elbow in outside arm edge elbow leaves the line vertical palm goes to head...the partner doing jum goes with forward energy jum so it become 1 strike holding center ...to an inside force relative to that arm in a freefight...then the tan of same partner would fire after holding the ouside line as the spent jum retracted to vu or whatever to fire again not hand chase /stick redundantly etc...


bong sao deflects laterally off our centerline the arm that has xed over it , by moving the incoming force sideways with bong we only need that arm to clear the way for...the vusao by the bicep later , ergo the need to repeat this simple partner ship in chum kil...how to recover the bridge to the attack.
fook is simply a neutral elbow recovery to no line needed ie my arm just got lifted u by a force I keep my elbow low and centered to trap on the line , holding the elbow not energy at the wrist or the bong will defelct my force...the more force in the wrist the more you get displaced because you seek to put the energy somewhere..if they guy wont let you ?? your not just striking and taking care of business , your trying to make contact to what ? feel that they are stronger ; )

Yip Man was a small man ...so how come he tied people up in funny positions without hitting them ?
because he let them chase the hands to try and stop him and took the positions they gave as overturned elbows stances etc...off balance..all trying to put their force on him.

chi-sa adds the same concept of development on a more complex level of either side...randomly later in set pattersn of developmental check test add another part etc...

not just now feel the chi standing at the dan chi sao distances needing a step just to reach each other to hit..

the slouching will come from this daily drill done to develop the idea ..when we use wristing the elbows lose any relevance , wasting time because your fighting a guy with energy at the hands /chasing...not developing a 1 punch angling assaul followed by another etc... abcking up the primary idea ..

2 free hands attacking 1 , in rotation not together like a lop sao punch for everything

look beyond the basic stance and see a fighter who is highly mobile and using the arm structure to intercept anything coming at his/her head as they strike ...if one arm opens up or we lose the angles we also increase our ability to be hit back 'trading ' punches..our strength lies in our ability to fight while facing anyside the person tries to give ...we simply keep them turned to no allow them to face with 2 working hands .


the tan jumpunch drill looks like a tan sao blocking and the other arm strikes...misleading when the student is pivoting seemingly in the center facing the incoming blows ...its actually just a drill to recover the tan elbow , not to block laterally with it....exercise not application.


slouching isnt required to fight its just the results of guys not doing stretching to keep open chests ...Im sure a lot of us have a slouch


I stretch out the chest with pnf / proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation & or crac methods acronyms for contracting relaxing agonist muscles against our own counter pulling muscle etc... one naturally allows the extension of the other .


bad posture training is VT

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . As per the many different versions of Ip Man's methods...you have to remember that only 4 people en toto completed the system under him, including his own son, Ip Ching. Many MANY MANY people - even the early students of foshan trained with him only for a while but did not finish. . . . .

It's very naive to say who got what from Yip Man. No one can know for sure. We ALL rely on what we were told.
It's common among Chinese Sifus of all styles to protect their "rice bowl" with claims of superior knowledge of their system. Claims/status mean nothing to me. What matters is did they go out and fight to test what they learned? I personally would want to study with the WC Sifus who actually fought for real. I'd never learn swimming from someone who never swam.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It very naive to say who got what from Yip Man. No one can know for sure. We ALL rely on what we were told.
It's common among Chinese Sifus of all styles to protect their "rice bowl" with claims of superior knowledge of their system. Claims/status mean nothing to me. What matters is did they go out and fight to test what they learned? I personally would want to study with the WC Sifus who actually fought for real. I'd never learn swimming from someone who never swam.

And still swimming or able to swim too.

[Phil Redmond]

And still swimming or able to swim too.

Thinking on your feet again I see.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thinking on your feet again I see.

Or in the water, as the case may be .

[KPM]

by trying to keep and developing this elbows on an imaginary centerline idea, we open our backs out , spread the lats and contract the pectoralis muscles/chest muscles..a personal trainers posture nightmare ...

---I agree. That's why I don't practice or teach the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline. That's not good biomechanics.

the basic training starts with SLT to learn to do the elbow/line idea...not anything about chi-or tricks.

---Again I agree. And in the SLT one starts with the arms held at the sides. This forces one to come forward to engage the centerline from an angle. The elbows are not on the centerline. To me, the elbow line is not a straight line that goes out from the center of the body. Its an arcing motion as it goes forward.


while doing the basic levels in dan chi , we need to get the elbow along the centerline to 'develop' further this idea .

---I guess I look at it differently. I don't try to put the elbow on the centerline during Chi Sao. This would leave the outer gate open to a blow from the partner's Fook Sao hand.


the slouching will come from this daily drill done to develop the idea

---I think you are onto something here. Maybe the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline is a big contributor to the tendency to "slouch." But I see both as poor biomechanics and therefore a mistake.


slouching isnt required to fight its just the results of guys not doing stretching to keep open chests ...Im sure a lot of us have a slouch

---Yep! Tight pecs are certainly a contributing factor! Wing Chun players should be doing stretches to open the chest and prevent this. And IMHO they should be standing up straight and not slouching!

[couch]

slouching isnt required to fight its just the results of guys not doing stretching to keep open chests ...Im sure a lot of us have a slouch

---Yep! Tight pecs are certainly a contributing factor! Wing Chun players should be doing stretches to open the chest and prevent this. And IMHO they should be standing up straight and not slouching!

I see the SNT form showing me that I must balance everything. That's why there is a Lop Sau to chambering the fist IMO (causing us to use the back muscles and posterior deltoid). The punch comes from the heart/middle, meaning IMO that in life I should walk the middle way. Maybe this stuff was built into the system, maybe not...but I like it.

For my cardio sessions, I spend a lot of time with the stretchy tube performing the chambering motion/rowing so that I keep my posture from coming into my chest (pigeon chested).

[Phil Redmond]

by trying to keep and developing this elbows on an imaginary centerline idea, we open our backs out , spread the lats and contract the pectoralis muscles/chest muscles..a personal trainers posture nightmare ...

---I agree. That's why I don't practice or teach the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline. That's not good biomechanics.

the basic training starts with SLT to learn to do the elbow/line idea...not anything about chi-or tricks.

---Again I agree. And in the SLT one starts with the arms held at the sides. This forces one to come forward to engage the centerline from an angle. The elbows are not on the centerline. To me, the elbow line is not a straight line that goes out from the center of the body. Its an arcing motion as it goes forward.


while doing the basic levels in dan chi , we need to get the elbow along the centerline to 'develop' further this idea .

---I guess I look at it differently. I don't try to put the elbow on the centerline during Chi Sao. This would leave the outer gate open to a blow from the partner's Fook Sao hand.


the slouching will come from this daily drill done to develop the idea

---I think you are onto something here. Maybe the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline is a big contributor to the tendency to "slouch." But I see both as poor biomechanics and therefore a mistake.


slouching isnt required to fight its just the results of guys not doing stretching to keep open chests ...Im sure a lot of us have a slouch

---Yep! Tight pecs are certainly a contributing factor! Wing Chun players should be doing stretches to open the chest and prevent this. And IMHO they should be standing up straight and not slouching!

I agree with you Keith. It's not the elbow that should be in the center but the forearm.

[k gledhill]

by trying to keep and developing this elbows on an imaginary centerline idea, we open our backs out , spread the lats and contract the pectoralis muscles/chest muscles..a personal trainers posture nightmare ...

---I agree. That's why I don't practice or teach the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline. That's not good biomechanics.

the basic training starts with SLT to learn to do the elbow/line idea...not anything about chi-or tricks.

---Again I agree. And in the SLT one starts with the arms held at the sides. This forces one to come forward to engage the centerline from an angle. The elbows are not on the centerline. To me, the elbow line is not a straight line that goes out from the center of the body. Its an arcing motion as it goes forward.


while doing the basic levels in dan chi , we need to get the elbow along the centerline to 'develop' further this idea .

---I guess I look at it differently. I don't try to put the elbow on the centerline during Chi Sao. This would leave the outer gate open to a blow from the partner's Fook Sao hand.


the slouching will come from this daily drill done to develop the idea

---I think you are onto something here. Maybe the idea that the elbow has to be exactly on the centerline is a big contributor to the tendency to "slouch." But I see both as poor biomechanics and therefore a mistake.


slouching isnt required to fight its just the results of guys not doing stretching to keep open chests ...Im sure a lot of us have a slouch

---Yep! Tight pecs are certainly a contributing factor! Wing Chun players should be doing stretches to open the chest and prevent this. And IMHO they should be standing up straight and not slouching!

the fook sao outer gate idea is pure chi-sao ...not the idea, remember your partners, developing each other in 'live drills', his hitting you from the out-side gate is not tactically possible if you think free fighting with no 'pre-rolling' . A lot of redundant ideas are born in dan chi-/ chi-sao like the fook.

REMEMBER ..you will fight with one lead [man sao] one rear[ vu sao] not as chi-sao..in other words your attacking limb say has been xed at the wrist by said fook sao [ just to explain] your rear hand [vu] will recover the outside line to this fook strike if it strikes ..you dont care because the rear line your vu fires from sweeps the zone /line made as the start to the forms..iow your fears are redundant because your whole positions responses in the real fight wont be allowing a situation like a fook over my tan etc...just wrong thinking.

In other words keeping your elbow out just so you dont get hit by a fook ...wrong thinking....the fooker should be concentrating on their own positions drill ideas...
the arm doesn't start by the sides it starts when the wrist X the centerline, as the beginning of the forms ...we start by ?
X'ing the line with each wrist'upper forearm , and ?
striking along it..and ?
coming back again ? Xing the line at ...the wrists
were the wrists x is the line
the elbows try to touch the line for training and leave to strike and back to the line or we just fight elbows out

the idea breaks down if you dont adopt angling /cutting strikes across striking arms or under them as the case may be. You will try to make your idea function by standing in center , spinning on axis , doing tan to this etc...

Tan never leaves the centerline, neither does Jum ...why ?

stretching out after is fine ...the idea is to make force roll off the arms as they angle in , not allowing a wide 'wedging ' angle so many like to do.

chi-sao warriors : ) WSL would usually beat challengers WITHIN 3 moves . not one rolled with him prior to this : )


If you draw an triangle in front of your chest , the base points by each arm pit for reference, if you take your hands and make a X so the rear /base has each hand there...now extend from the arm pits to the apex point of the imaginary triangle in front of you ..by keeping the elbows in your angle /forearms are acute enough to 'slip' force off and make it go to your outside shoulders....this base position is the rear Vu sao held by the rear bicep as reference ...look at YM and hi Vu sao it goes to the bicep not the centerline ...WHY?

to reinforce the elbow idea ... you dont fight with elbows tied to the line , remember your not a slave to the line .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tan never leaves the centerline,

Mmmmm, tan lines....

[couch]

Mmmmm, tan lines....

http://www.no-tan-lines.com

Isn't this all the rage now?

[k gledhill]

c'mon guys concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly breast Er!! I mean tan line's er oh forget it

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.no-tan-lines.com

Isn't this all the rage now?

I am old school, certain tan lines just say "its dinner time"

[sanjuro_ronin]

c'mon guys concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly breast Er!! I mean tan line's er oh forget it

If this heads in the direction of "sticky hands" I am out of here !