not touching that or that one
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not touching that or that one
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his hitting you from the out-side gate is not tactically possible if you think free fighting with no 'pre-rolling' .
----A nice hook or overhand strike will go right through the outside gate in a fighting situation
your rear hand [vu] will recover the outside line to this fook strike if it strikes ..
---Why use the rear hand (Vu) to defend if you can use the front? Unless of course the front hand is striking at same time! The front hand picks up the motion and defends to create an opening for the rear hand to strike through.
iow your fears are redundant because your whole positions responses in the real fight wont be allowing a situation like a fook over my tan etc...just wrong thinking.
---In my view its not wrong thinking. There are plenty of times when you get a reference point with his attack crossing your lead hand from the outside. Dan Chi Sao is a prelimary to Seung Chi Sao. The Bong to Tan transition in both teaches the student to "close the outside gate." The way I do it, the pressure or intention with the Tan should be forward and slightly outward. This neutralizes the partners forward and slightly inward pressure. If the elbow is on the center with no outward pressure his Fook hand can slip right across the top of it. Doing it with some outward pressure/intent teaches a desirable response in any fighting. If you roll from Bong to Tan and collapse the elbow you leave an opening. If you roll from Bong to Tan while using forward and outward pressure you collapse his structure/technique more effectively. If the opponent's attack is crossing your lead hand from the outside you better be ready to "close the gate."
In other words keeping your elbow out just so you dont get hit by a fook ...wrong thinking....
---The elbow isn't "out", its just not on the centerline. You mentioned the crossing-hands motion in the opening of the SNT form. Are the elbows on the centerline then?
the arm doesn't start by the sides it starts when the wrist X the centerline, as the beginning of the forms ...we start by ?
---The crossing-hands motion in the form defines the centerline for the student. The elbows aren't on it. All the actual techniques in the form start with the fists held at the sides.
the elbows try to touch the line for training and leave to strike and back to the line or we just fight elbows out
---The way I do and teach it, the intent or energy at the elbow is towards the opposite knee. This keeps the elbows down and the energy at the forearm going forward and slightly outward. In free technique my elbows are never out, and they are seldom exactly on the centerline, even when punching. The way I look at, Wing Chun structure borrows heavily on the triangle. A triangle in 3 dimensions forms a wedge. This wedge is expressed as a power-line that connects from the knees to the hips to the elbows and out with a strike or defense. If the elbow is pulled inward to be on the centerline then it is not aligned with the hip and knee. This is poor biomechanics.
Tan never leaves the centerline, neither does Jum ...why ?
---Tan does leave the centerline. Two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time, can they? If you are doing a Tan Da, the punch occupies the centerline and the Tan occupies a "mid-clavicular line." The punch is the attacking centerline and the Tan is the defending centerline. But the Tan has left the original line it started on in order to create the opening for the punch to go out on that original line.
If you draw an triangle in front of your chest , the base points by each arm pit for reference, if you take your hands and make a X so the rear /base has each hand there...now extend from the arm pits to the apex point of the imaginary triangle in front of you ..by keeping the elbows in your angle /forearms are acute enough to 'slip' force off and make it go to your outside shoulders
---And neither elbow is on the centerline...otherwise you would lose that triangular structure!
to reinforce the elbow idea ... you dont fight with elbows tied to the line , remember your not a slave to the line .
---I agree. But what the SNT teaches is to develop the elbow-line so that it is second nature. Using the elbow-line provides good offensive and defensive structure. But the elbow-line is not the same as the centerline.
Last edited by KPM; 04-30-2008 at 02:41 PM.
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In used to think like you...now I dont. good luck
tansao is the punch ...not 2 things occupying the same space...
the whole idea revolves around the elbows touching the line ...in training.
your seeing the system from a chi-saoers point of functionalism, "his fook will hit me if I dont block it by moving tan sao off the line and chase it...stick to it like its the fight your training for ..a chi-sao face off....the guy doing fook should be developing their jumming punch at you, not just trying to hit for hitting 's sake , if thats the case just 'fast slap' each other
all the arms are trained individually , while one is withdrawn to the side ..when we fight we never do this side draw...our arms are trained along a line in front of us .
Last edited by k gledhill; 04-30-2008 at 06:10 PM.
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Not in all WC. In TWC the crossing of the arms define the central lines.Originally Posted by KPM
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/theory.asp
In a round punch to the head the tan and the centerline could face the point of contact while the strike is along the central line.
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wsl would do similar attack offside arm with a tan 'on the line' while striking like a fac sao off body.....
the idea added to the delivery is to not fight the guy with a lead leg facing the center as chi-sao...but rather as a face off similar to weapons approach...
Last edited by k gledhill; 04-30-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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I'm seeing different things to you guys...
You see yip man leaning backward,
I see him leaning forward by leaning backward
You disagree in the positions of the taan sau,
I don't think he cares about the specifics of the taan sau,
I think his focus is on his intentions during the slow movements
You see him measuring the centre line when doing cross hands at opening of the form,
I think, by doing the cross hands, he is telling his body something else
I think we can discover a lot more of the forms we are doing if we look at how and why other lineages are doing things, or even how and why other arts are doing things
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Jooerduo, I see dead people ... just kidding ; )
Imagine the attacking line you take from a face off...the angles your after to work the system are so your shoulders align with the other guys but at an angle of , lets say 45 deg. just for the sake of description. The shapes of the triangle we mention should apex on the strike contact point so each arm can strike along the line that divides the triangle. The elbow leaving the line creates the outside edge of the triangle as it strikes across the arm , the line dividing the triangle has the elbow in strike while the previous arm retracts back to vu-sao...in that simple exchange the centerline isnt opened whil 2 of our strikes go in. Each strike controlling the line IF REQUIRED. In other words we reserve the chi-sao repsonse to contact by them , not by seeking it , we just hit in with no thinking other than hit the guy with 2 free arms and a clear mind.
tan strike elbow leaves the line while hitting forwards, the jum goes into the line with inner forearm while the spent tan retracts back to vu sao . This simple trained cycle of striking is the common chain punch only not with impact alone as the idea, but to use ither side of either arm as potential barriers to entry while we attack. Developed for this purpose in the dan chi--etc...
each arm learns to become a 2 hand action... the forearms act like a pak sao or a jut or simply slide force off and past our shoulders because of the acute angles they take to the target. they dont try to block by wedging ,they work their line , if the other guy uses lateral force [windshield wiper] we simply strike with the rear hand and retract the now spent strike,...still attacking.
IOW the attack line /tactical approach to the strike/cut isnt as the chi-sao drill starting point for the random exchanges to move from later in seung ma toi ma drills.
So the thinking of his fook over my tan or a punch going over my tan is redundant, why ?
because your whole positioning is wrong in the execution of the tactical delivery.
The opponent shows us how to attack them...how ? by delivering a line of force from one side of their body or the other, an arm a leg , a head down charge with a lead arm etc...
The chi-sao prepares us for accepting this offering and moving accordingly with the appropriate counter measures to deliver the ideas /concepts.
We use the knife as the guide in knowing that by isolating the fight to one side or the other , we minimize the chances of being overwhelmed facing center shoulder to shoulder. Rather , we want them to commit or attack by opening themselves up to stabs /chops etc... and deliver the cuts to the isolated side using our ADVANTAGE to best deliver a continous attacking 'intent' by freely striking with 2 arms in rotation attacking along an imaginary force line aka the centerline/and or central lines like twc.
By correct trainin of the strikes tan/jum , we create a seamless transfer of one hit to the other along the centerline , each strike takes over from the other to maintain the integrity of the defelection to the left or the right of our lines in rotation.
The seconfd level of this simple process is to deal with interuptions to it, by jut sao primarily, not lop sao, because jut keeps us in the line of fire , lop makes us grasp out of the air and chase , openeing us up and taking a striking arm out of the attack momentarily, something reserved for bil gee , home of lop sao.
So we have the tactic of flanking.
the arms trained to individually attack along the line that X the single arm of the opponent , either side is the same to us , so we can keep attacking the attempts to turn away from us and keep facing the offside shoulder to shoulder lines , only not as chisao in a basic stance doing roling with 2 arms extended worrying what to if that arm does this ? why because by isolating one side from the other it becomes redundant to fight it or reach for it to touch, why ? becuase youare trained to reach with 2 arms , one at a time across the isolated arm unable to reface to use the other arm against you...if it does you have all the ways in the system to perpetuate the attack without ever stopping to give them a gap to recover....striking /kicking/ attacking.
It requires that we use chi-sao not as a way to fight 2 arms equally but to establish a drill that allows us to angle/ strike and develop the punch/deflect idea in random responses to either side presented adding stepping in as a 'role' and our attacking entry, while the other role is that of counter striking entry along what side ? thats the thing we dont know and cant so we practice to make it instinctive, to the given Jab , X, front kick etc...
By maintaining a side on [ no lead legs until entry] stance shifting/ turning right or left so we can angle and attack the attempted entry.
Adopting lead legs early gives a low kick to a thai boxer and commits you already to in and forwards with a lead leg...adopting a turning stance only to gain entry by then facing the entry angles , like the dummy and also fighting the protractor perimiter before the fighter , we dont attack the dummy by stepping directly at it in a long line of force...this is what we want delivered to us.
Chi-sao can be misleading without the knife/pole explained and developed as the guide at all times. Many actions in chi-sao are redundant in fights .like using two arms extended equally , this is just to do a 'push me -pull you idea' and develop attrbutes of our thinking. not to worry about my tan needs to go out to touch the fook or it will hit me. Let it hit you! see if the guy even has a punch
The process connects the upper arm to the body so that the strength of your combined forceheel into ground/thigh extension/hip etcc[ the kneebone connected to the thigh bone song] all deliver the force required to ko the guy whil not lifting your elbows and hinging at the shoulder, while striking and not veering off the strike path....not to feel anyone .
Mistakes that one makes are opening up elbows whil striking , striking to close [no force] to far away [ no contact] open line allowing entry ...this is for closing the line down not for a chi-sao game ...
you are training to deliver the perfect attack. not a stop n clinch, stick to maloo my darling hand patty cake thing , been there done that !
make the tansao hand into a fist not an open palm and keep the elbow tight to the line then strike gently , the elbow will leave the centerline as tyour fist becomes vertical [ this is just training the idea we dont do a tan shae in the fight]
then do a jum with a fist and as you fininsh the tan punch do an inward elbow jum strike along the line the left tan strike and right jumstrike , shut down the left side of the guy, the other the right this idea is the shaving hands one out one in to recover the ability to keep firing...then facing at angles we fight them....it doesn't work head on, ergo the attempts to use a flying tan that we know doesn't work while in the center of an incoming attack ....we shouldnt be there in the first place.
PING ! hopefully
the system is devoted to this simple idea.
we dont fight like chi-sao facing with 2 arms extended, man sao/vusao exchange in perpetual attack, the idea is that we cant be stopped unless faced by ourselves doing the responses back...then it becomes quality control and we see who breaks down first at lightning speeds that dont stop for anything ...thats the guy I'm training with now ; )
Last edited by k gledhill; 05-01-2008 at 06:24 AM.
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In used to think like you...now I dont. good luck
---You mean you used to think in terms of good biomechanics, and now you don't?You've pretty much admitted that the "slumped shoulders slouch" is hard on the body and that trying to put the elbow exactly on the centerline contributes to this.
tansao is the punch ...not 2 things occupying the same space...
---I challenge you to do a Tan Da (Tan Sao with simultaneous punch) and end up with both the Tan and the punch on the same line.
your seeing the system from a chi-saoers point of functionalism,
---No. I'm seeing the system from the standpoint of practical biomechanics. Here is one way I sometimes demonstrate/illustrate what I have been saying to my students: Have a partner take a stick and hold it in one hand. Stand in front of him with your Bong in place. Now have him press against your Bong with the stick as if he is trying to touch the center of your chest with the tip. Now roll your Bong into the Tan position. If you collapse your Bong to Tan structure as you roll by pulling your elbow in too far, the stick is going to poke you in the chest. If you maintain good forward and outward pressure with your Tan you will "close the outside door" and the stick will be deflected. Using this kind of Bong to Tan transition with good forward pressure can actually collapse the opponent's technique and turn him. This breaks his structure/balance. This doesn't work well if you are slouching (because it eliminates some of your forward pressure) or if you are collapsing your Tan inward. The pivoting Lan Sao from the Chum Kiu can also be used to disrupt the opponent's structure/balance, but not if you are "slouching" as you pivot because it then would have no forward pressure/intent.
Not in all WC. In TWC the crossing of the arms define the central lines.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/theory.asp
In a round punch to the head the tan and the centerline could face the point of contact while the strike is along the central line.
Hey Phil!
---Here we are just talking semantics. The "defensive line" that I mentioned, you are calling the "central line". The "attack line" that I mentioned, you are calling the "centerline." Picture a straight punch coming in directly towards your center. You respond with Tan Da. The Tan Sao motion sweeps across the "original" centerline to deflect his punch and make the opening for your own punch to go out along that "original" centerline. But the Tan Sao has to go past the "original" centerline to deflect and make the opening. It ends up stopping on what I have called the "defensive line" and what you have called the "centerline." The punch goes out on what I have called the "attack line" and what you have called the "central line." But contrary to what Kevin seems to be saying, your Tan and your punch cannot occupy the same line at the same time. Two things can't be in the same place at the same time!
Last edited by KPM; 05-01-2008 at 07:52 AM.
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---Ok great! But I think we're still just talking about different semantics.
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I'm seeing different things to you guys...
---Ok. That's allowed!
You see yip man leaning backward,
I see him leaning forward by leaning backward
---And just how does one "lean forward by leaning backward"?
You see him measuring the centre line when doing cross hands at opening of the form, I think, by doing the cross hands, he is telling his body something else
---What is that "something else"?
I think we can discover a lot more of the forms we are doing if we look at how and why other lineages are doing things, or even how and why other arts are doing things
---I agree. But I also think we should be examining them for what is good biomechanics and structure.....and what is not.
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Imagine the attacking line you take from a face off...the angles your after to work the system are so your shoulders align with the other guys but at an angle of , lets say 45 deg. just for the sake of description. The shapes of the triangle we mention should apex on the strike contact point so each arm can strike along the line that divides the triangle. The elbow leaving the line creates the outside edge of the triangle as it strikes across the arm , the line dividing the triangle has the elbow in strike while the previous arm retracts back to vu-sao...in that simple exchange the centerline isnt opened whil 2 of our strikes go in. Each strike controlling the line IF REQUIRED. In other words we reserve the chi-sao repsonse to contact by them , not by seeking it , we just hit in with no thinking other than hit the guy with 2 free arms and a clear mind.
---Kevin: no offense intended, but it sounds to me that you are the one that is "seeing the system from a chi-saoers point of functionalism". I'm just trying to address what is good biomechanics and structure, whether within Chi Sao or within free-fighting/sparring.
simply slide force off and past our shoulders because of the acute angles they take to the target. they dont try to block by wedging ,they work their line
----I think we are saying similar things. You just aren't understanding what I mean by "wedging", and I haven't been able to explain it very well. I agree with the idea of the angle to target allowing force to slide off and past. But there is also an angle created by the defensive technique itself. That angle should also cause the force to slide off and past whether one has stepped or angled with the body in respect to the opponent or not. Pulling the elbow in too far loses that angle in Tan Sao. If someone can't stand dead center in front of an opponent and deflect a straight punch with a Tan Sao without pivoting or stepping to angle, then their structure is "off."
So the thinking of his fook over my tan or a punch going over my tan is redundant, why ? because your whole positioning is wrong in the execution of the tactical delivery. The opponent shows us how to attack them...how ? by delivering a line of force from one side of their body or the other, an arm a leg , a head down charge with a lead arm etc...
---I don't see how that is "redundant." Its all a matter of balancing energy and force. The fook sao hand in Chi Sao represents any force coming in through that outside gate. You have to deal with it as it comes or as you say "as the opponent shows us how to attack"...or defend in this case. Its the same whether it is a Tan Sao position in Chi Sao or a Man Sao position in free-fighting.
It requires that we use chi-sao not as a way to fight 2 arms equally but to establish a drill that allows us to angle/ strike and develop the punch/deflect idea in random responses to either side presented adding stepping in as a 'role' and our attacking entry, while the other role is that of counter striking entry along what side
---I think it also, and more importantly to me, teaches good structure and use of forward pressure. Watch those recent clips from Seni. If one opponent is unable to neutralize and stop the forward pressure from his partner, then he is in trouble! Rolling while dropping the Tan elbow too far towards the center is just inviting the partner to come right over the top and crush your structure! Aaron Baum did that on numerous occasions against his opponent.
PING ! hopefully
---PONG!
the system is devoted to this simple idea.
---Which one? The ideas you were describing didn't seem so simple.
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I'll make it for you! I want to talk about this stuff too.
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. Friedrich Engels
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oh well I tried
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---Well, thanks for the effort.oh well I triedThanks for the chat.
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