Wing Chun Attack/Defend Lines

[couch]

Hey Capt. Meyers, in TWC we defend the centerline and strike along the central line. I'll make a new thread with a clip so as not to hijack this one.

---Ok great! But I think we're still just talking about different semantics. Do you do things differently against the straight punch attack that I described above?

With my limited TWC knowledge, I look at what I do with my WC and what I used to do in TWC and see only minor variations.

While training TWC, I was always taught to place my Tan on my centre and have my centreline line up with the attacker's attack. I was also taught to step into this attack to negate the force while punching out on the central line towards the attacker's face.

What I saw was some 'hard-fast' rules in TWC compared to what I do now (not putting down what TWC does...just the best way for me to explain my experience). With my WC, I would just fill the space with Tan, not going past my opponent's shoulder. Instead of my centreline being attached to my Tan Sau and facing all of this in the direction of the attack, I'm somewhere in between.

Plus, depending on the attack and angles, for the most part, I'm stepping in and towards the attack somewhat.

So from my POV, it's not too much different! Hope this makes sense!

Maybe I'll try to make a vid too.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[KPM]

Hey Kenton!

Sounds like we may do things pretty similarly! The terminology I was taught goes like this:

Picture a straight punch coming in directly towards your center. You respond with Tan Da. The Tan Sao motion sweeps across the "original" centerline to deflect his punch and make the opening for your own punch to go out along that "original" centerline. But the Tan Sao has to go past the "original" centerline to deflect and make the opening. It ends up stopping on what I call the "defensive line." The punch goes out on what I call the "attack line." The Tan and the punch cannot occupy the same line at the same time because two things can't be in the same place at the same time! The "attack line" is centered on the target of your punch, and the "defense line" is centered on the attack. If the punch had been a wide loopy punch instead of a straight punch the same ideas would apply. The Tan would got out on the "defense line" which would be aimed at the center of the attacking limb (mid-point of his forearm) and the punch would go out on the "attack line" aimed at his face or sternum.

[couch]

Yup. Agree here. Good written example (WC/MA sucks to talk about online sometimes)!

The difference I see between the TWC and my WC (need Phil to correct/elaborate) is that in your example, my centreline would be facing somewhere between the Tan line and the Da line.

In TWC, the Tan & Centreline are together (body shifted f ar ther/not really shifted, however, already facing that way due to the stepping in TWC).

[KPM]

Yup. Agree here. Good written example (WC/MA sucks to talk about online sometimes)!

The difference I see between the TWC and my WC (need Phil to correct/elaborate) is that in your example, my centreline would be facing somewhere between the Tan line and the Da line.

In TWC, the Tan & Centreline are together (body shifted ****her/not really shifted, however, already facing that way due to the stepping in TWC).

---Yes. I agree with you. My actual "center" (defined as a line extending straight out from my vertical mid-line and perpendicular to my shoulders) would also be pointed somewhere between the attack and defense lines in my examples. We'll have to get Phil to clarify the TWC version for us!

[Phil Redmond]

I just did this quickly after class. There are some things I left out but I can elaborate later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc

[couch]

I just did this quickly after class. There are some things I left out but I can elaborate later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc

That was awesome Phil.

Thanks,
Kenton

[KPM]

That was awesome Phil.

Thanks,
Kenton

Yes! Thanks Phil! You were right Kenton! And I stand corrected. The angling that Phil is describing is just a little different than what I have been doing. And after standing up and working with it a bit, I think it is better biomechanics. That little bit of additional turn that lines the "defense line" up with the centerline does redirect incoming force into the rear leg better and also allows for a little additional reach with the punching hand. Never stop learning! Never assume you know all the answers! :-)

[Phil Redmond]

Yes! Thanks Phil!

You're both very welcome.

Never stop learning! Never assume you know all the answers! :-)

You can say that again. I'm still learning.

[Matrix]

I just did this quickly after class. There are some things I left out but I can elaborate later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc

Phil,
I'm looking forward to your elaboration, because quite frankly I'm not in agreement with what I'm seeing in the video. It looks like chasing hands to me. The opponent has 2 hands as well, so you've set yourself up to be taken out on the his 2nd punch by over commiting to the first punch. All of your energy has gone into "blocking" the hook, so even if you land that punch - which I'm doubtful of because of your position and distance from an opponent with such a reach advantage - you don't have much power to have an effect.
Of course, I may be totally out to lunch here - it wouldn't be the first time. I just think the overall approach doesn't work for me on several levels.

Bill

[Lee Chiang Po]

The technique that Mr. Redman demonstrated is basic machanics. I think maybe he was just over emphasizing to make a point. It was driven into my head that tan never leaves your center line. You turn to face contact or it will not work. However, like you, I would see that one could over do it somewhat. The actual movement to shift center is only a few degrees. It does not leave your other side unprotected.
This is an interesting thread. Bill, what would be your alternative, without actually violating your basic principals of center line?

[Phil Redmond]

The technique that Mr. Redman demonstrated is basic machanics. I think maybe he was just over emphasizing to make a point. It was driven into my head that tan never leaves your center line. You turn to face contact or it will not work. However, like you, I would see that one could over do it somewhat. The actual movement to shift center is only a few degrees. It does not leave your other side unprotected.
This is an interesting thread. Bill, what would be your alternative, without actually violating your basic principals of center line?

Hi, it's Redmond.
Matrix made a good point but you did as well. It was simply a demo. The bottom line is that myself and many other TWC people can pull off what we train. A little proof is what an MMA guy who visited our school Thursday wrote on another forum: "Hey, everybody. As promised, I went down to Keith Mazza's Traditional Wing Chun school, tonight, and met up with *******. I'll have a more full report for you, tomorrow; but for tonight, suffice to say that I was very pleasantly surprised by what I encountered there." Internet speculation is one thing. Feeling is another. We are here in NJ come and see. You'll also be surprised.

[KPM]

Hey Bill!

It looks like chasing hands to me.

---How is blocking and striking at the same time with a Tan Da or Biu Da "chasing hands"?



The opponent has 2 hands as well, so you've set yourself up to be taken out on the his 2nd punch by over commiting to the first punch.

---It doesn't look over-committed to me. Phil has good balance and can move quickly. Plus, by actually landing the punch (in application and not in a demo) he is going to disrupt the opponent's structure and balance and make it somewhat difficult for him to throw an effective second blow.



All of your energy has gone into "blocking" the hook, so even if you land that punch - which I'm doubtful of because of your position and distance from an opponent with such a reach advantage - you don't have much power to have an effect.

---If you watch the clip closely you'll see Phil's partner "wince" a couple of times. So evidently he didn't have any doubt that Phil could have landed his punches. And, as has been pointed out...it was a demo. Phil was not moving into his partner to disrupt his balance. If he did, his punch would have more power and penetration.



I just think the overall approach doesn't work for me on several levels.

---Then please tell us how you use the idea of Attacking and Defending lines. The only thing I have been doing essentially different from Phil was failing to line up the Tan or the Biu on my center when pivoting. Now I see that what Phil illustrated is better biomechanics. By lining up the defending motion on the center, it has better support from the overall body structure. The force is absorbed through your structure and directed into the ground. By not accepting the force in that alignment, your defensive technique has a higher potential to be overwhelmed and collapse. When used against a straight punch with a pivoting deflection rather than a round punch, that wouldn't be a big a factor. Put the little extra pivot to align the defensive technique on the center would still give the strike a little extra reach and penetration.

[Matrix]

Hey Keith and Phil and Lee,

I just want to say that my comments reflect my own point of view. It's not a question of I'm right or he's wrong. The point of a forum is to present opinions. I've met Phil, very briefly, in California. He's definitely skilled and real gentleman to boot, so I hope my comments are not taken out of that context. I actually wanted to send this as a PM to Phil, but he has PM disabled.

---How is blocking and striking at the same time with a Tan Da or Biu Da "chasing hands"?.

I call it chasing hands because the tan and the main body motion is directed at the wrist of the incoming hook. It's not the tan da or biu da per se that's the issue. It's where and how it's being applied. You need to determine if you're going to go in and attack directly or stay more to the outside.

In the demo where the hook is overpowering the tan, then you need to change the hand to something else, for example an inside lap or whatever else feels correct given your perception of the incoming force, rather than try to apply more force to the tan. Tan, or any hand for that matter, is not a static position. For optimum effectiveness it should be dynamic. Once you freeze and try to add force to hold it, you're dead.

------It doesn't look over-committed to me. Phil has good balance and can move quickly. Plus, by actually landing the punch (in application and not in a demo) he is going to disrupt the opponent's structure and balance and make it somewhat difficult for him to throw an effective second blow."

Like I said, this is my POV. If you think it's cool, then more power to you. He moves quickly, but in at least one case, it's right into the power-arc of the strike which forces him to over-rotate into the incoming punch to save his bacon. In the case of the Biu Sau, it attackers punch is clearly out of range. Help it to go past, instead of "blocking", and go to the outside.


-

----If you watch the clip closely you'll see Phil's partner "wince" a couple of times. So evidently he didn't have any doubt that Phil could have landed his punches. And, as has been pointed out...it was a demo. Phil was not moving into his partner to disrupt his balance. If he did, his punch would have more power and penetration.

You're kidding me, right?? He 'winced'. On one hand you're asking me to take things with a grain of salt because it's a demo ( I'm happy to do that), but you want me to believe that he delivered enough power in that strike to hurt the opponent., because the guy flinched or winced or made some other facial expression. Sorry...

Hitting is about using the force of your entire body, not merely hand position to deliver the blow. The body angles and direction of the footwork seem not to be aligned with the goal of delivering that to hitting the target. You asked to to watch the clip closely, so I'll ask you to return the favour. Look at the footwork and angle of the body relative to the strike. Of course this may be a camera angle thing, but I can only comment on what I see.

Also use your imagination; do you thing the guy is going to throw one hook and drop his other hand so you can hit him. If he throws a 2nd hook from the other side, are you going to swing around 180 degrees to do the same thing over there? If not, why not?

---Then please tell us how you use the idea of Attacking and Defending lines. The only thing I have been doing essentially different from Phil was failing to line up the Tan or the Biu on my center when pivoting. Now I see that what Phil illustrated is better biomechanics. .

Yes, the biomechanics are better, if you're going to chase the hand. I'm saying you should not be standing there in the first place. If you get stuck there or caught off guard for some reason then I guess it's OK. You're just leaving the guy with his balance and allowing him to rain punches on you. Attack. Step inside the hook and hit the the guy - if you hit that shoulder you're going to kill his power point, and you will be more square to him for your next technique. If you don't feel confident enough to go in, then go outside.

Like I said earlier, you either need to go inside to the eye of the hurricane or move outside. Don't sit there and leave yourself in a bad position.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Bill

[Matrix]

Hi, it's Redmond.
Matrix made a good point but you did as well. It was simply a demo. The bottom line is that myself and many other TWC people can pull off what we train.

Phil,
I have no doubt that you can pull it off. I give you props for posting videos and standing by everything you say.

Just because I have a different point of view doesn't make either one of us wrong. My point in posting is just to say that there may be another way of looking at this. Otherwise we can all sit around and pat each other on the back on how great we are. LOL. Which in reality would be a total waste of time.

Peace,
Bill

[k gledhill]

With my limited TWC knowledge, I look at what I do with my WC and what I used to do in TWC and see only minor variations.

While training TWC, I was always taught to place my Tan on my centre and have my centreline line up with the attacker's attack. I was also taught to step into this attack to negate the force while punching out on the central line towards the attacker's face.

What I saw was some 'hard-fast' rules in TWC compared to what I do now (not putting down what TWC does...just the best way for me to explain my experience). With my WC, I would just fill the space with Tan, not going past my opponent's shoulder. Instead of my centreline being attached to my Tan Sau and facing all of this in the direction of the attack, I'm somewhere in between.

Plus, depending on the attack and angles, for the most part, I'm stepping in and towards the attack somewhat.

So from my POV, it's not too much different! Hope this makes sense!

Maybe I'll try to make a vid too.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

tan sao is just a training position for developing a strike , it can be used in short bridge work for whatever idea makes you survive ..but the basic idea is it is a method to develop an elbow position relative to the strike lines we move along. Same as jum sao , the inside of the arm is used to hold the line while striking in unison with the tan/striking arm. Adopting angles that make these strikes function requires perimeter /protractor maneuvering before an opponent , who's entry line of arm/leg isn't known. IOW waiting to do an application you know will work to a partner who throws just the right punch and no follow ups...assuming one has a perfect response always is not % thinking .
We will all get wet sooner or later by fighting a water fight in front of the others line of fire...
Timing to draw the water before throwing ones counter is critical , so angling with the movement , not before, or after .
Being in the path of a potential flood , what tactic would you adopt ? would you try to plug up the shots from random spots , turning this way then that, then back again, all the while disregarding the potential crash of water flooding before you. Sure it works , like any martial arts answers work for them, but its the percentage basis that is overlooked and when faced with a torrent of water OVER AND OVER AGAIN , slowly one sees a nose broken, a tooth broken , a face smashed, a knife just got through once , how many times can you afford to risk being chopped with a large knife ? me none

SOOOoooo... we adopt a 'wait n see' were you stick the knife and from what side and from what angle etc... relative to my knives angles etc...not standing in the center facing the swings and stabs of random attacks but attempting to always maintain the % in our favour by staying to the side of one or the other not inside the potential arc's of both, getting 'wet' in England is slang for being slashed by a knife/razor .
Even if you dont see the blade your moving outside the potential for either hands holding it to 1/2 ..better than 100% inside the swings of both.

Tan simply becomes a shape to develop the elbow angles to fight outside gate while striking nothing to do with the hand shape , the jum inside gate after the tan has retracted . jut's , pak's, bong's all work to clear a side entry attack from our committed counter attack's, or they will reface us to try again raising the % back to themselves. If we maintain the assault longer than they do, who holds the better % of the outcome? there are no guarantees or set pieces that can fall apart , just odds in our favor raised against a stranger with 2 sharp knives .

Try thinking your fighting an armed man when doing your training , one knife in each hand. Same in chi-sao ..I stab you , you stab me , you step in to stab me I angle angle stab you back, test repeat 1,000,000 times. I try to stab over your arm you do bong I recover my ability to stab again by dropping my bong to tan . You use inward jum sao stabs to deflect an inside gate attack.

Only when doing the real deal , will you always hold a life line in the rear hand aka vu sao .
the hand that stabs after the front has finished . chisao gives us working angles to take to a knife fight before we go ouch to slow, ouch to low, ouch not enough deflection angles and I was offbalance when I tried to stab you so i fell backwards , lets do it again
add trapping , chasing to kill ...and the idea beocmes life or death not point fighting.
Although bare hands is close for the obvious reasons that there is a lower % of death than a knife. We still use the knife TACTICAL approach from weak sides not strong centers.

If you have 2 knives as well, then how would you face them ? equally chop for chop center to center , swinging back and forth opening up your centerline with each arcing swing ? % ?'s or adopt a one attack forwards one protects your life , that one goes forwards and the previous attacking cut comes back to hold the life line ...letting the other guy do whatever he wants

Your using 2 knives in fast rotation along the fastest stab line against one now flanked/unable to regain a facing cut to you fast enough...over.

% survival -/+ ?

If your caught in the center then you can duck by all means ; ) use a knife to do whatever the hell it need s to but beware the flood , escape to the outside or take the wild swing after it has passed over , allowing the opponents flankign energy to go over and past...again would you stay there so the other hand follows into the kill zone or attempt to recover a flank or perimiter face off to start again ? % best odds for surviving ?

you begin to see that trying to turn the energy of a knife stab and turning your body this way and that become a redundant idea , as doing the fancy stuff while standing in the center of 2 knives lines of entry.

the knives teach the hands, guiding the way up, not SLT up blind to the path before it.

We adopt random angling and small step attack lines so we never get countered like a bull charging a matador with a sword hidden behind the cape. In chi-sao we adopt the role of bull v matador so we can try to react/angle /counter strike to the horn nearest and angle in and offline to the force behind it, but close enough to stab and kill it at any given point in time , the bull goes were the matador goes , he aint stupid either ; ) only he too tries to go for one side not facing the potential to be countered, add random sides each trying to catch the other i preparation for what ?
I love this system