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Thread: Is Ng Family Style real?

  1. #61
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    My sifu always calls it Baqua. I don't know what this devine whatever is. I'll check and find out though, see if my sifu (John Dufresne) knows. When I find out from him I'll post it A.S.A.P.

    You got me curious about it. I saw something refering to Hsing I called devine crushing fist but nothing in regards to Baqua. I'll check it out though.

  2. #62
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    Shane,
    What is the origin of your Six Harmony style? Mark was under the impression either Ng or his Grandfather invented it.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    I study Ng Family Bagua and I'm pretty sure I remember the thread that you read this on. Some of the older names for Baguazhang were turning palm or rotating palm. In one of the early English language books on Bagua (I think it's Robert Smith's book, but I could be wrong) somewhere in there somebody (Maybe Dong, Hai-quan, again, I can't remember) is quoted as saying they learned a divine style of boxing. Eventually people started calling the art Baguazhang. All common knowledge. I think whoever posted that got these things sort of muddled up and misinterpreted them. I remember reading that when it was posted, but I didn't care enough to say anything. Our Baguazhang is Baguazhang.

    To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It's Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It's called linear Baguazhang just because we don't practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.

    Shane
    Finally another Ng member.......lol. Yes I just started learning monkey Baqua a while back. Me and Mark Bugher and a girl named Lilly went to whitesburg and John showed us the begginings of it. It's really cool. I hope to learn more of it. But there were a few here on this forum that were asking the origins of some of "our" (meaning Ng style) stuff and could not answer it with certainty. All I know is most of it came from his grandfather, am I correct on that much? Where did his grandfather learn it?

  4. #64
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    Shane, where are you from and when did you study under John Ng? I studied for three years at four seasons (1985-1988) then under Dufresne since 1989 to present. There is a lot of history that I do not know about our stuff. The info about our snake was really interesting to me. Do you have any other info on anything. Since my teach (John Dufresne) moved back to Boston I don't get the chance to ask him very much unless it's through e-mail. Please inform me. Thanks, Mark R.
    Last edited by mkriii; 05-12-2008 at 02:02 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkriii View Post
    The thing with the form though is at an open circuit tournament the judges aren't going to know if it's a legit form or not because more than not they are going to be shotokan karate or Ishen Ryu Karate or some other karate style so it was funny when (and it happened a few times) one of us would win 1st or 2nd place with a made up form. If you were a good B.S.ter and a good actor you could pull it off. Also this let him see what you think about this particular style and helps him decide wheather he thinks it right for you.
    If that were the case, then you weren't going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    The structure is going to be different for each branch. The branches basically begin with Dr. Ng. He was a professional martial artist all through his youth, and had the time and inclination to learn a few complete styles, huge chunks of a few more, and bits and pieces of several others. Most of his students, however, did useless stuff like go to college, have families, get jobs, etc. So since they didn't all have time to learn everything, he taught everybody different stuff from his repertoire. Pretty much everybody that I've met got a little taste of everything, but they also all had their specialty and in most cases they learned that one complete system and the other stuff was just extra. A few of them got more than one complete system.

    Shane

    Thanks Shane. I was curious because this "patchwork" style of learning and teaching has been criticized and I was wondering how an Ng student avoided the pitfalls of the fundamentals of different styles running together. As you said, it would be easier if you were a full time student, but those with families and jobs might have a tougher row to hoe.

    I'm also curious about your BaGua. The form of BaGua that I know is also a version of Jiang Rongqiao's. With Ng students, is the style initially taught with the circle walking, and that part is phased out as one progresses in understanding the fundamentals of the palm changes? The reason I'm asking is that I was under the impression that the special characteristcs of BaGua were walking, the gaze, the sitting position and overturning (Dragon form, Monkey Appearance, Tiger Sitting, Eagle Overturning). The stepping should be endless, circular and flowing like a swimming dragon. How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    I study Ng Family Bagua

    To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It's Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It's called linear Baguazhang just because we don't practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.

    Shane
    hi shane,

    is the bagua you practice a modified version of jian rong qiao's "original" form?
    if so who modified it?
    how/when did it come into your system?
    is there video of this "linear" form online?
    is it the same postures as jiang rong qiao shows in his book but done without the circle walk?

    thanks for answering with any information you have.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?
    hi jp,

    here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
    there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

    basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

    single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    hi jp,

    here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
    there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

    basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

    single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.
    Thanks for the clip Bruce. You call that "level training" What do you mean by that? I'm not familiar with that term. Are you referring to training without the circle walk or training on different surfaces (not necessarily level)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    hi jp,

    here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
    there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

    basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

    single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.

    The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles.....this is very good practice.....similar to Hsing I linkage set.......a common Baqua practice.
    BQ

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqualin View Post
    The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles.....this is very good practice.....similar to Hsing I linkage set.......a common Baqua practice.
    BQ
    Thanks BQ. I've "freestyled" the form often by mixing the palm changes, but I've never tried it without the circle walking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    If that were the case, then you weren't going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.
    No sh1t. The traditional judges at Taiji Legacy are strict. I've seen them disqualify people for making stuff up.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    We train our Baguazhang like this:

    Wuji
    Eight Energy Palms Standing
    Linear Walking Patterns
    Circle Walking
    Circle Walking Eight Energy Palms w/ Inside Change and Outside Change
    Eight Energy Palms Functions, Striking Drills, Blocking Drills, Rolling Hands
    Combat Footwork and Kicking
    Equipment Training and Conditioning
    Fighting
    etc.

    So those are our basics. I just typed this real fast so I might have left something out. If I notice later that I did, I will edit.
    Thanks for the response. The are, as always, very knowledgable and informative.

    Is that the order of your training too? When one is learning BaGua are they learning that exclusively or are they training in other styles as well? How long does one train in Ba Gua before they move on to also train in something else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    We train our Baguazhang like this:

    Wuji
    Eight Energy Palms Standing
    Linear Walking Patterns
    Circle Walking
    Circle Walking Eight Energy Palms w/ Inside Change and Outside Change
    Eight Energy Palms Functions, Striking Drills, Blocking Drills, Rolling Hands
    Combat Footwork and Kicking
    Equipment Training and Conditioning
    Fighting
    etc.

    So those are our basics. I just typed this real fast so I might have left something out. If I notice later that I did, I will edit.

    Anyway, the forms come into play after that and basically teach combinations & drills and act as an exercise to keep you moving in the bagua 'way' for an extended period of time in order to get you used to the body mechanics and the principles of movement to enhance your fighting.

    As far as constant walking, when you're practicing your Baguazhang form, there are very few times that you should not be moving and/or transitioning with your footwork, and to my understanding that is how you should think of the special characteristic of constantly walking. The way you do it in the form is kind of applying that to the big picture whereas the circle walking is (amongst many other things) a way to practice it in isolation. The same is true of the other three animal qualities. They should all be present and be practiced in the form at every moment of every movement, so it doesn't really matter if you're walking the circle while you do the form or not. In order to do this, though, you will of course have needed to practice them in isolation long enough to integrate them into your forms practice. That's our way, anyway. Other people have their own way too, of course.


    Shane
    Very impressed!!! A nicely laid out program that allows alot of understanding of Baqua
    principals....Thanks for sharing,
    BQ

  15. #75
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    Lineage under John Wingloc Ng

    Has anyone heard of Instructor David White? He claims to have learned under grandmaster Ng as well. Anyone know him or trained with him. I think he may have taught in Roanoke Virginia for a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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