CLF Questions and Answers

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I just picked this up from your "Questions and Answers":

http://www.clfqna.zoomshare.com/

"Who was the first to use Hung Victory Hung Sing 洪 勝?
It was Cheung Hung Sing's name given to him from the Green Grass Monk and used as his schools first name before having to change it to Glorious Victory used by all of Cheung Hung Sing's disciples."

No one ever used these two characters 洪勝 together in the CLF branch names. Please check your Chinese characters and your CLF history before you post any more misleading information.

You have misquoted Howard Choy, "The three main branches of the system, namely, Hung Sing (Originally known as Great Sage Hung Sing, later changed to Heroic Victory Hung Sing), Hong Sing (Great Victory), and Buk Sing (Northern Victory, whose lineage can be traced to Tam Salm), feature slight variations in their techniques."

What he mentioned was either Great Sage Hung Sing 洪聖, or
Heroic Victory Hung Sing 雄勝, or
Great Victory Hung Sing 鴻勝, or
Buk Sing 北勝,
but no Hung Victory Hung Sing 洪勝!

Jeong was called Great Victory Hung Sing 鴻勝, never Hung Victory Hung Sing 洪勝. Back to the drawing board, Frank!

XJ

[hskwarrior]

joseph, you don't know ****! howard choy told me personally a long time ago in an email that jeung yim had to change his name cuz it was connected to gangsters. according to howard choy jeung yim asked chan heung what name he should use. so we have a confirmation here joseph from howard choy. jeung yim did not originally call his school glorious victory, it was originally hung mun victory. sorry chan fam joe, u are wrong again!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

joseph, you don't know ****! howard choy told me personally a long time ago in an email that jeung yim had to change his name cuz it was connected to gangsters. according to howard choy jeung yim asked chan heung what name he should use. so we have a confirmation here joseph from howard choy. jeung yim did not originally call his school glorious victory, it was originally hung mun victory. sorry chan fam joe, u are wrong again!

When was Cheung Yim born?
born in 1824 during the Ching Dynasty

So, he was 12 when Chan Heung had already created CLF. Okay...

Was Chan Heung Cheung Yim's only teacher?
A: No. Prior to 1836 Cheung Yim was a student of Lee Ga Master Lee Yau San, Chan Heung's second sifu. Then in 1836 about the same time or early than the official establising of the system, Chan Heung took in the 12 year old Cheung Hung Sing. Then in 1841 Cheung Hung Sing took the Green Grass Monk as his final sifu. This is where Cheung Hung Sing is said to have put the "FUT" in Choy Lee Fut.

So Cheung Yim studied with the Green Grass Monk LATER ON. He is Chan Heung's student none the less.

Why did Cheung Yim only study Choy Lee Fut under Chan Heung for 5 years?A:Well, if you think about it, Cheung Yim was never really an official student of Chan Heung. why? Because Cheung Yim copied Chan Heung's techniques, but later was secretly trained by him. Because back then, only those with the surname of Chan were allowed to learn Chan Heung's gung fu....hence all of Chan Heung's original students possessed the last name of Chan.
But when Cheung Yim revealed that he was being trained by Chan Heung by injuring his teachers senior disciples, the parents of the injured individuals complained to the village elders who gave Chan Heung an ear full on the village rules. So Chan Heung was forced to ask Cheung Yim to leave the King Mui village.

How do you put this 12 year old kid as a founder of CLF? So, he was a contributer to a future branch, so what?? So was Taam Saam, So what??

Why not just give him that credit?? What is the difference?? Do you think that it means that FUT SAN HUNG SING CLF is not as good as Chan Family? It's a matter of preference, right? If you like it, then it's good. Don't be so insecure....face facts Frank. You've already laid it out here....



Why all the hub-bub?

[extrajoseph]

"...howard choy told me personally a long time ago in an email..."

Show us the email then, Frank. If you have'nt got it now, then you can wite to Howard Choy again, I am sure he is still around somewhere in Australia if you Google search him. I only commented on what he wrote and what you have quoted.

You have showed us a name in Chinese characters that no one ever used in CLF, that shows how much you know about our history. All your so called "research" came from Futsan, you are just not equipped to do your own original work, because you do not have the language ability to do so. Sorry to be so blunt, but that is the fact as I see it.

[CLFNole]

If Jeong Yim was asking Chan Hueng what name he should use doesn't that look like a student asking a sifu? If he wasn't his student but rather an equal or co-founder couldn't he use whatever name he wanted?

[mokkori]

Come'on Franky, you can take these chumps!

[extrajoseph]

Dear Mokkori,

There is no flame to fan here.

Despite Frank's pig-headedness, he is a great soldier of CLF just like all of us here. Without guys like him, we would never be what we are today.

History and tradition are what bound us together and arguing about their details made our jouney more interesting.

As long as Frank call himself a CLF man and throw those mean Kwa, Sow and Charp, he is my brother.

I am a little bit older than he is, so I can slap him around a little bit. He is a big man, so he can take it! Don't you worry.

XJ

[Eddie]

Dear Mokkori,



Despite Frank's pig-headedness, he is a great soldier of CLF just like all of us here. Without guys like him, we would never be what we are today.
...

He is a big man, so he can take it! Don't you worry.

nicely put.

[Eric Olson]

Let's see if Howard Choy magically appears...he used to post on here as Wu Lung I think.

EO

[mokkori]

Not trying to fan any flames, but I did get you to say something nice about Frank! That makes it his turn I guess? Hey, I know the issue and I know the mutual respect despite of it. Sorry to make light of such a serious situation, Ill leave yous to it.

[hskwarrior]

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut
History lesson 101


Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut was established officially in 1851 by Jeung Hung Sing, native of Sun Wui.

Q: When was Jeung Yim born?
A: 1824

Q: Did Jeung Yim learn anything prior to coming to Chan Heung?
A: Yes, Lee Yau San was in Sun Wui and was Jeung Yims first teacher prior to turning 12 years old.

Q: Was Jeung Yim the founder of his own gung fu by the age of 12?
A: NO. Jeung Yim went to chan heung when the latter officially established his Choy Lee Fut that was going to passed down strictly within the Chan Village in King Mui.

Q: Was CLF fully established by the time Jeung Yim went to Chan Heung?
A: No. CLF had just got launched and Jeung Yim was there in its initial stages of development and left after only 5 years. And Chan Heung spent the rest of his life developing his own system.

Q: What happened to Jeung Yim after those 5 years?
A: Jeung Yim was sent to the Green Grass Monk who completed his gung fu training.
Q: How old was Jeung Yim when he went to the Green Grass Monk?
A: 17 years old.

Q: Who was the Green Grass Monk?
A: The Green Grass Monk had many alias as was the custom of the times then. Especially when you were running from authorities. But, some of the names he was known by was Ng Ging, and Tsai-Te-Chung. Later he was part of the 2nd founding fathers of the Hung Mun Society. According to information stemming from Hung Ga and Some Southern Shaolin sources the Green Grass Monk was the head gung fu instructor at the temple in charge of 108 monks.

The Green Grass Monk was said to have studied from Monk Hang Yang, who lived at the Chung Lam Temple. In one story, the soldiers destroyed the Chung Lam Temple and thought Hang Yang was dead so they left him, but the Green Grass Monk happened to find Hang Yang alive under some rubble.

Q: When was the Hung Mun established?
A: Between 1767-1787
Q: Acoording to these dates, do you thing its possible Jeung Yim learned from the Green Grass Monk?
A: yes. According to our story, the Green Grass Monk was already and old old man when Jeung Yim finally located him.

Q: How long did Jeung Yim learn Fut Ga from the Green Grass Monk?
A: 8 years. (1841-1849)

Q: Green Grass Monk gave Jeung Yim a new name of Hung Sing, what did this name mean?
A: Its original meaning was Hung Mun Victory, but because it contained the Hung from Hung Mun he eventually had to change his name to avoid being arrested or killed by the cops or soldiers. He later used the Glorious Victory Hung Sing to cover up the old one.

Q: What happened to Jeung Yim when he completed his training under the Green Grass Monk?
A: The Green Grass Monk instructed him to go to Fut San, contact the Hung Mun there, and devote your school to training Hung Mun fighters.

Q: Was there a Chan Family school in Fut San then?
A: It seems there was a Chan Family Hung Xiong (Great Sage Hung) school there. But that person and Jeung Yim used completely different characters in their names. So, the blind guy could have been the first for Chan Heung, but Jeung Yim was the first to use Hung Victory/Glorious Victory in Fut San.

Q: When did Jeung Yim take over the Chan Family school in Fut San?
A: 1875, the year of Chan Heungs death.

Q: Xtrajoseph says that no one in CLF ever used the Hung Victory Hung Sing, so you must check your notes.
A: According to Chan Family CLF information, Chan Heungs son Koon Pak changed the name of his hung sing because his gung fu brothers (Lee Yan-Jeung Yims senior disiciple) were getting into a lot of trouble so he change his name to the one meaning Strong Victory. This is a little strange since Chan Heungs Hung Xiong didnt contain the word Victory in it, but his sons school did.

Jeung Yim had to change the name of his school to take off the heat he was receiving over it. He then changed the name to Glorious Victory. However, in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a Hung Mun banquet was being held where Liu Bang was almost assassinated. In the story, the Hung typically used for the Hung Mun wasnt used this time. The one used was in fact the Hung meaning Glorious or Wild Goose. The same one Jeung Yim changed his Hung to.

My question is, if Chan Heungs own son, and Jeung Hung Sing had to change their names to avoid being killed by the Qing, what names were they using then if the Hung Victory wasnt being used then?

Q: Xtrajoseph wants you to produce an email that goes back over ten years, what do you think?
A: Of course he does. But I don=t t have to. In the early 1990's I contacted Howard Choy to ask him if he knew any information about the Green Grass Monk. He told me the Chan Family didnt have anything or know anything about the Green Grass Monk, that nothing was in their writing about him He then told me that Jeung Yim had to change his schools name because he was wanted by the police and needed to hide. So, according to Howard Choy, it was Chan Heung who told him to use the Glorious Victory Hung Sing.


Q: Does the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon deny that Chan Heung was his sifu?
A: No. As simple as that. But, was Chan Heung Jeung Yims most influential sifu? Did he complete Jeung Yims gung fu? Another simple answer. NO!
Q: Then who did complete Jeung Yims training?
A: The Green Grass Monk did. See, first Jeung Yim learned from Lee Yau San. In a sense, this makes Chan Heung and Jeung Yim classmates since they both learned from the same sifu. Jeung Yim was under Chan Heung in the birthing stages of Chan Heungs Choy Lee Fut. So in that sense, Chan Heung was the creator of Choy Lee Fut. But when Jeung Yim came back from the Green Grass Monk and shared with Chan Heung what he learned from his last teacher, a newer CLF had emerged.

Q: Joseph seems to think that noone used the Hung Victory name in Fut San. What do you think about this?
A: Well, if Joseph knew anything about the Hung Mun, hed know that most of the people in Fut San or southern China at that who supported the Hung Mun added the Hung to their names back then. The Green Grass Monk being heavily involved with the Hung Mun as he was, instructed Jeung Yim to use the Hung character with the word victory in it because the Green Grass Monk was Hung Mun!!!!!!!

Q: What revolutions was Jeung Yim and His Hung Sing Kwoon involved in?
A: Tai Ping Rebellion, the Second Opium War, Red Turban Revolt, and a few smaller ones. But the hsk was involved with every revolution up to the 1940's.

Q: What do you think Jeung Yims main purpose was?
A: Jeung Yim was so involved with the hung mun that I don=t t think he was that interested in promoting the system. He was too focused on staying alive, training the Hung Mun fighters and his own, and only interested in evolving his system to worry about spreading the style. They were at war, millions of people, including Hung Sing and CLF people died in the Tai Ping Rebellion. Many many CLF masters died then. What a shame.

Q: why do you say Jeung Yim was co-founder of CLF.
A: Well, according to many writings, even in Chinese, there is a theme that there was a 2nd coming of CLF, a restructuring, reshaping or whatever after mid 1850's if you will. Also, according to the history how it is universally passed down, Jeung Yim payed a visit to Chan Heung, thanked him, and shared what he learned with his former teacher.

Q: Does the Jeung Yim lineage believe Chan Heung was Jeung Yims teacher?
A: Yes, but he wasnt Jeung Yims only teacher. Lee Yau San was first, Chan Heung 2nd, and Monk Ching Cho last. If Chan Heung was Jeung Yims only teacher, we would excitingly admit that with no reservations.

Q: When Did Jeung Hung Sing Die?
A: He died in 1893 after falling ill and dying from something like Pneumonia at the age of 69/70.

Q: who was the successor?
A: Chan Ngau Sing.
Q: With people like Lui Chun, Lee Yan and Yuen Hai, why was Chan Ngau Sing chose as the successor?
A: Couldnt say exactly, but perhaps because Lui Chun, Lee Yan, and Yuen Hai all had their own Hung Sings going at the time long before CNS.. And since Jeung Yim just passed away, Chan Ngau Sing took over.

Q: Who were some of Chan Ngau Sings students?
A: Some of the more famous ones was Chui Cheung, Qian Wei Fang, Liangguihua, Wu Qin (who was Sun Yat Sens personal body guard) and many many more. In fact, the number of Chan Ngau Sings students reached over 10,000.


Joseph, I live in San Francisco. Have you been to SF? Theres lots of Chinese people here, who speak and read Chinese here. How lucky am I? So, my long time buddy, I got access to anything I need in regards to Chinese things. LOL. You have no idea!!!!!!!!!
In fact, I hope to be inserting a photo I will be allowed to take at the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong Supreme Lodge of the Hung Mun alter, which has the first 5 ancestors on it, then the second 5 ancestors which includes Tsai-Te-Chung, who we believe is the Green Grass Monk.

Including this link of the Head of the Hung Mun, (its on the net, so don=t t trip) but behind him is this alter im referring to.

here...Click Here

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

The character for Hung as in Hung Mun was never used at the same time with Sing (Victory) in any of the CLf branch names. If you diagree, please show me some evidence to support your claim.

This Hung character as in Hung Mun was used by the Ancestral King Mui School as the Great Sage Hung Sing. Once this character Hung as in Hung Mun was used by King Mui, no other branch will use it again. All the three Hung characters are written in a different way, to differentiate the three schools from each other.

I have been to your city and there are a lot of Chinese there, but unless they are familiar with CLF history, they would have no ideas of what we are talking about.

The stuff you wrote up about Jeung Yim came from Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon, they made these things up after they got going in March 1998 (i.e. formally registered), so if you can find any material before the 1990s to say the same thing as you mentioed, then I will take another serious look, otherwise they are just fabricated stories without any supporting evidence.

Jeung Yim never studied with Lee Yau-Shan and the GGM was a made up character. Jeung Yim was a devoted disciple of Chan Heung and followed him all his life. You tried to change history by saying Futsan and King Mu CLF are different because they do their forms differently, that don't comput with me. Every branch do their forms differently, but they all came down through Chan Heung.

The age difference between Chan Heung and Jeung Yim was too great for Jeung to have co-founded CLF and there is no evidence that Jeung Yim's CLF is different to Chan Heung, they are just stylistic differences with the same core principles.

History is not about what you believed in, history is not a faith, it is a branch of knowledge, so if you want to change history, then you have to do some pretty hard study and research to convince us.

XJ

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

Here is what the Chinese in China and not SF think of Chan Heung and Jeung Yim.

1) Type in the characters for Chan Heung in the Google search and you will get pages about Chan Heung being the founder of CLF:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...e+Search&meta=

2) Type in the characters for Jeung Yim in the Google search and you hardly get any thing on him or CLF:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%E...n&start=0&sa=N

3) Type in the characters for Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon and you will get a page from the People's Government of Guangdong Province to say Jeung Yim was a disciple of Chan Heung:

http://www.gd.gov.cn/gdgk/gdms/stzz/...0924_20967.htm

4) In the government website for Overseas Chinese Affairs of Guandong, you can read about King Mui being the birthplace of CLF:

http://www.gd.gov.cn/gdgk/gdms/stzz/...0924_20967.htm

If Jeung Yim co-found CLF, the Chinese government would have heard about that, wouldn't they?

XJ

[seisei]

ej.
good or bad you sound just like frank are you the same person with a split personality?
m

[hskwarrior]

joseph, where did the gov. get any info on chan heung? was it from the chan family? if so, u show me yours ill show u mine okay? lol.....you'll take a look. who are u again joseph that i have to show u anything? instead of shooting it down, do something productive n show me something other than chan fam based.